Typical values for iBike parameters?
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Typical values for iBike parameters?
What are the typical values for the iBike parameters? I found a statement in the manual saying "Crr should be about 0.004 for most roads." I didn't see any other guidance in the manual.
The "calibration in high wind" thread has a statement that wind scaling should be between 0.8 and 1.2. Is that correct?
What are the values in your iBike profile? How tall are you? How much do you weigh? Do you have a "regular" roadbike or an aero (TT or tri) bike?
I've been trying to get accurate and reliable results from my iBike for about a year and still don't have confidence that I'm there. I was there with my original iBike because I was able to ride with a guy who had a PowerTap and we had very similar power readings at speeds below 20mph. But above about 25mph, I would get spurious watts (40-100w when pedaling backwards) which I thought was due to vibration. So I bought a VRK. When that didn't fix it, I bought the Gen II. Which still hasn't fixed the spurious watts at speed, so it must be a problem with wind scaling or CDa, right?
I don't have much experience with any of this and am not a physicist. I would like to understand all the components of how the iBike works, but my top priority is accurate power readings. Currently, every time I look at my iBike and I'm thinking "I wonder if that's correct? Too low? Too high? I wonder if I will ever have confidence in it again?" And every time I load into the iBike software, it makes big corrections to the numbers and I'm frustrated yet again.
See below for my various profiles.
For my first calibration attempt with my new Gen II, I drove to Chatfield Reservoir because it is a relatively flat area. But they had paved it recently and it felt like glue. I could do coast-downs on a downhill section -- so much friction the bike would coast to a stop going downhill. Felt like the brakes were on.
Second attempt was at an area I don't ride often but thought would make a good calibration ride. Unfortunately, the hills were much steeper than I recalled and there were a lot of turns.
So I did a 3rd attempt on 11-16 and sliced/diced the numbers 3 different ways. After doing the coast-downs, I did an out-and-back on a short section of relatively flat and car-free road. But it was only 1.25m each direction. Then I went on a long ride which was going to be a loop but I turned around and made it an out-and-back. About a 20 mile out-and-back. I did a profile from the planned out-and-back, a new one with the 10 mile out-and-back (which had a few 90 degree turns and some stoplights), then I did a profile after selecting a subset of the 20 mile section with no turns or stoplights.
Then I did another out-and-back yesterday. Here are all the results. Which have the most reasonable values for a guy on a regular road bike (Titus Modena), 6'2" tall, 180 pounds? Should I manually tweak one to try to get accurate results?
Please note -- the last 4 rows in the table were all done with the same coast-downs, just different out-and-backs.
Like I said, I've been trying to get accurate readings from iBike for a year. I'm extremely frustrated.
BTW -- I'm riding the same bike with the same tires and pretty much the same clothes on pretty much the same routes as when I had the original iBike.
The "calibration in high wind" thread has a statement that wind scaling should be between 0.8 and 1.2. Is that correct?
What are the values in your iBike profile? How tall are you? How much do you weigh? Do you have a "regular" roadbike or an aero (TT or tri) bike?
I've been trying to get accurate and reliable results from my iBike for about a year and still don't have confidence that I'm there. I was there with my original iBike because I was able to ride with a guy who had a PowerTap and we had very similar power readings at speeds below 20mph. But above about 25mph, I would get spurious watts (40-100w when pedaling backwards) which I thought was due to vibration. So I bought a VRK. When that didn't fix it, I bought the Gen II. Which still hasn't fixed the spurious watts at speed, so it must be a problem with wind scaling or CDa, right?
I don't have much experience with any of this and am not a physicist. I would like to understand all the components of how the iBike works, but my top priority is accurate power readings. Currently, every time I look at my iBike and I'm thinking "I wonder if that's correct? Too low? Too high? I wonder if I will ever have confidence in it again?" And every time I load into the iBike software, it makes big corrections to the numbers and I'm frustrated yet again.
See below for my various profiles.
For my first calibration attempt with my new Gen II, I drove to Chatfield Reservoir because it is a relatively flat area. But they had paved it recently and it felt like glue. I could do coast-downs on a downhill section -- so much friction the bike would coast to a stop going downhill. Felt like the brakes were on.
Second attempt was at an area I don't ride often but thought would make a good calibration ride. Unfortunately, the hills were much steeper than I recalled and there were a lot of turns.
So I did a 3rd attempt on 11-16 and sliced/diced the numbers 3 different ways. After doing the coast-downs, I did an out-and-back on a short section of relatively flat and car-free road. But it was only 1.25m each direction. Then I went on a long ride which was going to be a loop but I turned around and made it an out-and-back. About a 20 mile out-and-back. I did a profile from the planned out-and-back, a new one with the 10 mile out-and-back (which had a few 90 degree turns and some stoplights), then I did a profile after selecting a subset of the 20 mile section with no turns or stoplights.
Then I did another out-and-back yesterday. Here are all the results. Which have the most reasonable values for a guy on a regular road bike (Titus Modena), 6'2" tall, 180 pounds? Should I manually tweak one to try to get accurate results?
Please note -- the last 4 rows in the table were all done with the same coast-downs, just different out-and-backs.
Like I said, I've been trying to get accurate readings from iBike for a year. I'm extremely frustrated.
BTW -- I'm riding the same bike with the same tires and pretty much the same clothes on pretty much the same routes as when I had the original iBike.
- Attachments
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- iBike calibration comparisons v4.JPG (77.85 KiB) Viewed 10779 times
Jim Mason
C'dale SuperSix, Specialized Transition, Ibis Mojo, Orbea cx
C'dale SuperSix, Specialized Transition, Ibis Mojo, Orbea cx
Re: Typical values for iBike parameters?
I see a few things that would give you bad results. It is really important to follow the coastdown and 4 mile ride instructions VERY importantly. Doing a 10 mile out and back can give you good results, but there is also a lot more time involved to introduce more data that can skew your results. It's best to keep it to 4-5 miles (that's how I have gotten my best results).
On almost all of your out and back rides you are stopping at traffic lights. This will involve braking which will slightly point your handlebars down (giving you a more negative riding tilt and affecting your crr). Traffic lights also mean traffic. If you have traffic going past you in both directions you will have wind scaling numbers that can vary. This will affect your cda.
My advice is to find a good 2 mile road with little to no traffic. Do your tilt and wind offset out of the wind. Then do your coastdowns (if you can do them very slightly uphill this is better). When you have done your coast downs do a trip reset, ride out two miles and back two miles (good roads, no steep hills, no stop signs, little to no traffic, and if you can go straight out two miles and then straight back two miles it works better. . .no 90 degree turns).
Try these steps and you should get much better results. If you would like, you can save you calibration ride file and send it to me at boyd (at) totalcyclist dot com and I will talk a look at it (although I am out of the country until the 28th so I may not be able to answer right away).
PS, it looks as if your cda is pretty consistent around .39 and this looks good. You should not have a riding tilt of a positive .4. Almost all people have riding tilts that are negative (unless you are riding in the drops). A riding tilt of around -.4 to -.7 should be around ballpark for you.
On almost all of your out and back rides you are stopping at traffic lights. This will involve braking which will slightly point your handlebars down (giving you a more negative riding tilt and affecting your crr). Traffic lights also mean traffic. If you have traffic going past you in both directions you will have wind scaling numbers that can vary. This will affect your cda.
My advice is to find a good 2 mile road with little to no traffic. Do your tilt and wind offset out of the wind. Then do your coastdowns (if you can do them very slightly uphill this is better). When you have done your coast downs do a trip reset, ride out two miles and back two miles (good roads, no steep hills, no stop signs, little to no traffic, and if you can go straight out two miles and then straight back two miles it works better. . .no 90 degree turns).
Try these steps and you should get much better results. If you would like, you can save you calibration ride file and send it to me at boyd (at) totalcyclist dot com and I will talk a look at it (although I am out of the country until the 28th so I may not be able to answer right away).
PS, it looks as if your cda is pretty consistent around .39 and this looks good. You should not have a riding tilt of a positive .4. Almost all people have riding tilts that are negative (unless you are riding in the drops). A riding tilt of around -.4 to -.7 should be around ballpark for you.
Boyd Johnson
http://www.boydcycling.com - high performance carbon wheels and accessories
http://www.boydcycling.com - high performance carbon wheels and accessories
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Re: Typical values for iBike parameters?
The screenshot below was my intended out-and-back ride. It is the least hilly road in the area and just about the only one that is straight and no stop signs or stoplights. No traffic, either. But it is only approx 1.2 miles long, though, so rather short for an out-and-back. And there was a fairly strong headwind out/tailwind back on the day I did the calibration rides. I did this out-and-back right after the coast-downs. The other out-and-backs were not planned that way; I was starting to do a big loop, but instead of turning right at 10 miles and looping, I turned around and came back. Wanted to see if it gave better data than the 2.5m out-and-back.
Regarding the coast-downs -- as you can see, there is a lot of variance in the values my coast-downs produced. Friction varied from 6.5 to 14.8. All in the same 6 minutes of riding on the same road. Is that normal? There are several right around 7-8 and several right around 11-12. They were done in a slight saddle, so one goes west, the next east, the next goes back west again, and so on.
Regarding the coast-downs -- as you can see, there is a lot of variance in the values my coast-downs produced. Friction varied from 6.5 to 14.8. All in the same 6 minutes of riding on the same road. Is that normal? There are several right around 7-8 and several right around 11-12. They were done in a slight saddle, so one goes west, the next east, the next goes back west again, and so on.
- Attachments
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- iBike - 2008-11-16 Profile creation coast-downs.JPG (32.9 KiB) Viewed 10718 times
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- iBike - 2008-11 Buffy Trail 2point5 mile o-a-b Profile creation v2.JPG (111.63 KiB) Viewed 10720 times
Jim Mason
C'dale SuperSix, Specialized Transition, Ibis Mojo, Orbea cx
C'dale SuperSix, Specialized Transition, Ibis Mojo, Orbea cx
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Re: Typical values for iBike parameters?
Sorry for your frustration. I think you are doing things mostly correctly, but there are a couple of key suggestions that should improve your results.
Wind conditions are the primary determinant of how good your calibration is going to be. Coastdowns only last several seconds and so there isn't much time for averaging out the effects of turbulent winds, which is why there is so much variability in your fric results on the 16th. There was too much wind that day.
Another key element, especially with Gen I and II but it is also still important with Gen III, is to do your coastdowns and o&b ride on the same outing with the exact same tilt cal and wind offset cal. The o&b ride measure wind_scaling and riding_tilt, which are the key factors for correctly breaking down aero and fric into CdA and Crr. You can further help your odds of success if you do everything at the same time--if temperature changes significantly between the time that you do your coast-downs and o&b or if you hit a bump in between that knocks your tilt out, you will end up with messed up your profile results.
That saddle (I have used the term bowl before) that you found for your coastdowns might be just right--both Boyd and I do the same thing doing the coast-downs in opposite directions. Just make sure the saddle is slight--nothing more than maybe 1.5% grade on either side--less than that would be better.
Also, I don't think there is anything wrong with the profile that you rode on for your o&b ride, but it would have helped if it were longer. The only problem I see with that day are the wind conditions. The key to happiness is to wait for calm winds. Slight wind is fine as long as it is steady, but in that case make sure you don't do any coast-downs with a tailwind.
Finally, let me just point out that the improvements that we did in GenIII will really help with your confidence that the power numbers you see on the road are accurate. I'm not trying to say that you have to throw money at this to fix your problem--I'm just saying the on-the-road tilt correction and the wind offset improvement in GenIII make the iBike much more user-friendly and forgiving. Together with the fix of the rough road power spikes that GenII fixed, there isn't much left that can cause mysterious problems with your power numbers. That said, the GenI and II iBikes still produce great results. Every day I ride with 3 iBike units, one of each generation. In fact, I still reference all of my results to the post-processed GenII unit. After post-processing, the GenII unit matches my PowerTap and Quarq data very consistently. In fact, with the weather getting colder it is looking like I can get better results with post-processed GenII than with the DFPM sometimes due to the temperature-dependence of strain gauge measurements. (And with the GenIII unit I'm seeing that accuracy on the road too.)
We should be able to get better results for you with the GenII unit. Take a look at the instructions again and stick closely to them, focusing on the key tips above including Boyd's. As Boyd pointed out, most, but not all, have a negative riding_tilt when they do a good profile. The key there is to do a good tilt cal just before your coastdowns and o&b and to make sure you bike is tight and nothing is happening to your unit to throw off its tilt such as rough bumps or heavy pushes on the buttons between coastdowns. Also, make sure you don't torque the bars up as you ride (mostly a concern if you have aero bars).
Travis
Wind conditions are the primary determinant of how good your calibration is going to be. Coastdowns only last several seconds and so there isn't much time for averaging out the effects of turbulent winds, which is why there is so much variability in your fric results on the 16th. There was too much wind that day.
Another key element, especially with Gen I and II but it is also still important with Gen III, is to do your coastdowns and o&b ride on the same outing with the exact same tilt cal and wind offset cal. The o&b ride measure wind_scaling and riding_tilt, which are the key factors for correctly breaking down aero and fric into CdA and Crr. You can further help your odds of success if you do everything at the same time--if temperature changes significantly between the time that you do your coast-downs and o&b or if you hit a bump in between that knocks your tilt out, you will end up with messed up your profile results.
That saddle (I have used the term bowl before) that you found for your coastdowns might be just right--both Boyd and I do the same thing doing the coast-downs in opposite directions. Just make sure the saddle is slight--nothing more than maybe 1.5% grade on either side--less than that would be better.
Also, I don't think there is anything wrong with the profile that you rode on for your o&b ride, but it would have helped if it were longer. The only problem I see with that day are the wind conditions. The key to happiness is to wait for calm winds. Slight wind is fine as long as it is steady, but in that case make sure you don't do any coast-downs with a tailwind.
Finally, let me just point out that the improvements that we did in GenIII will really help with your confidence that the power numbers you see on the road are accurate. I'm not trying to say that you have to throw money at this to fix your problem--I'm just saying the on-the-road tilt correction and the wind offset improvement in GenIII make the iBike much more user-friendly and forgiving. Together with the fix of the rough road power spikes that GenII fixed, there isn't much left that can cause mysterious problems with your power numbers. That said, the GenI and II iBikes still produce great results. Every day I ride with 3 iBike units, one of each generation. In fact, I still reference all of my results to the post-processed GenII unit. After post-processing, the GenII unit matches my PowerTap and Quarq data very consistently. In fact, with the weather getting colder it is looking like I can get better results with post-processed GenII than with the DFPM sometimes due to the temperature-dependence of strain gauge measurements. (And with the GenIII unit I'm seeing that accuracy on the road too.)
We should be able to get better results for you with the GenII unit. Take a look at the instructions again and stick closely to them, focusing on the key tips above including Boyd's. As Boyd pointed out, most, but not all, have a negative riding_tilt when they do a good profile. The key there is to do a good tilt cal just before your coastdowns and o&b and to make sure you bike is tight and nothing is happening to your unit to throw off its tilt such as rough bumps or heavy pushes on the buttons between coastdowns. Also, make sure you don't torque the bars up as you ride (mostly a concern if you have aero bars).
Travis
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Re: Typical values for iBike parameters?
Made another attempt at calibration this morning and got really strange results. Did the coast-downs on the exact same road as all prior coast-downs but got really big Friction numbers. Not sure what was up with that. Pumped up the tires, did a Tilt and Offset before the ride, results of the Tilt seemed good (Tilt within 0.2% when rotating bike 180 degrees), went and did the coast-downs. No traffic, no wind, seemed like ideal conditions. Then did two different out-and-backs, both a little on the short side but no traffic and very little wind.
Results were a wacky, though. Friction values on the coast-downs are much higher than previous coast-downs -- 14-15 when prior coast-downs were more in the 9-10 range. And then the Tilts were wacky, too - the first one is a negative 1.8% and the second one negative 2.8 and wouldn't save the profile because of a "Tilt out of range". I didn't change anything on the bike -- bars or iBike mount. Seems strange that two rides back to back would result in such radically different Tilt calculations -- -1.8% and -2.8%.
I guess I will try yet again tomorrow. Or Monday.
Results were a wacky, though. Friction values on the coast-downs are much higher than previous coast-downs -- 14-15 when prior coast-downs were more in the 9-10 range. And then the Tilts were wacky, too - the first one is a negative 1.8% and the second one negative 2.8 and wouldn't save the profile because of a "Tilt out of range". I didn't change anything on the bike -- bars or iBike mount. Seems strange that two rides back to back would result in such radically different Tilt calculations -- -1.8% and -2.8%.
I guess I will try yet again tomorrow. Or Monday.
- Attachments
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- iBike - 2008-22 CPP o-a-b Profile creation - tilt out of range.JPG (46.86 KiB) Viewed 10604 times
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- iBike - 2008-22 Buffy Trail 2point8 mile o-a-b Profile creation v2.JPG (45.66 KiB) Viewed 10603 times
Jim Mason
C'dale SuperSix, Specialized Transition, Ibis Mojo, Orbea cx
C'dale SuperSix, Specialized Transition, Ibis Mojo, Orbea cx
Re: Typical values for iBike parameters?
You might want to check your battery. Your first o&b had a nearly zero riding tilt, and each progressive cal ride was "worse", indicating the possibility of a low battery. Is it cold where you are riding?
John Hamann
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Re: Typical values for iBike parameters?
Travis, just curious, but how are you determining that above? i.e. what's your reference, if it's not either the PT or the CinQo?travispape wrote:Every day I ride with 3 iBike units, one of each generation. In fact, I still reference all of my results to the post-processed GenII unit. After post-processing, the GenII unit matches my PowerTap and Quarq data very consistently. In fact, with the weather getting colder it is looking like I can get better results with post-processed GenII than with the DFPM sometimes due to the temperature-dependence of strain gauge measurements.
BTW, I'm sure you know this, but make sure that the PT is set to "auto zero" so that it re-zeros when you coast. That goes a long way towards minimizing effects of offset drift over the course of a ride. Also, my experience so far with a CinQo shows me that it's offset is fairly stable, even with temp changes (plus one can always "zero" it as well during a ride just by remembering to backpedal at least 4 times at some point).
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Re: Typical values for iBike parameters?
It was 42 degrees for the coast-downs and out-and-backs on Saturday. I did an out-and-back on a relatively flat but short (approx 1.2 miles each way) road, then and out-and-back on what I thought would be a longer section of road that was more hilly. Turns out the 'longer' o-and-b wasn't much longer and was pretty hilly. That's the one that ended up with "Tilt out of range". Those were certainly bizarre results. Maybe I mis-read the Tilt in my hurry to get going and didn't actually start with a good tilt.
iBike shows the battery is at 284. That's okay, right?
I plan to try again tomorrow morning. Today was pretty windy all day. accuweather.com forecasts 50 degrees and 2-3mph winds in the morning tomorrow, so that should be good, correct?
iBike shows the battery is at 284. That's okay, right?
I plan to try again tomorrow morning. Today was pretty windy all day. accuweather.com forecasts 50 degrees and 2-3mph winds in the morning tomorrow, so that should be good, correct?
Jim Mason
C'dale SuperSix, Specialized Transition, Ibis Mojo, Orbea cx
C'dale SuperSix, Specialized Transition, Ibis Mojo, Orbea cx
Re: Typical values for iBike parameters?
The colder the temperature gets the more rapidly the CR2032 battery looses its "oomph". 42F starts to get to be where the battery is not happy.
If possible, and as a test, try putting a fresh battery into your iBike before doing the next calibration ride.
It's possible that you've got a defective unit but I want to eliminate the battery voltage possibility.
If possible, and as a test, try putting a fresh battery into your iBike before doing the next calibration ride.
It's possible that you've got a defective unit but I want to eliminate the battery voltage possibility.
John Hamann
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Re: Typical values for iBike parameters?
Yes, I have the PT set to auto-zero and I make sure to coast do let it zero. The PT answer usually matches the expected result based on the time to ride my commute route, which I know very well by now. If it doesn't match, I can usually trace it back to forgetting to let the auto-zero happen after a temperature change.Tom_Anhalt wrote:Travis, just curious, but how are you determining that above? i.e. what's your reference, if it's not either the PT or the CinQo?
BTW, I'm sure you know this, but make sure that the PT is set to "auto zero" so that it re-zeros when you coast. That goes a long way towards minimizing effects of offset drift over the course of a ride. Also, my experience so far with a CinQo shows me that it's offset is fairly stable, even with temp changes (plus one can always "zero" it as well during a ride just by remembering to backpedal at least 4 times at some point).
I'm riding a prototype CinQo with an early revision of FW. I'm sure they were still working out the details of the calibration at the time and it starts to deviate on the coldest of mornings here. By the way, the CinQo has performed very well otherwise and based on your experience, it sounds like they have fixed the temperature-dependance that I'm seeing. I need to send it back to them to update the FW.
The point is, the iBike is performing well enough that it doesn't take much of an issue with a DFPM and it will perform better.
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Re: Typical values for iBike parameters?
I put a new battery in the iBike. It was 55 degrees this morning and no wind. I do not have aero bars. Please see pics of my bike below. My iBike spent the night in the garage near the garage door. I put the door up and set the iBike outside while I got food and got dressed. I rode around the neighborhood for approx 10 minutes before doing the first coast-down. I'm sure the iBike was thoroughly acclimated to the temperature. I did a careful Tilt, did a Wind Offset, then did a bunch of coast-downs and an out-and-back of 4.5 total miles.
The Friction values seem really high -- 27-30. Is that normal? On my first few sets of coast-downs, I was getting 9-10. The last ones (in prior posts above) were 14-17. This time they are almost double that and almost triple the values I've gotten multiple times before.
What affects Friction values? Same tires, same pressure, same bike. If memory serves, my prior calibration rides did not include water bottles. This time, I was planning a long ride, so I had 2 full water bottles and some energy bars in my jersey pockets. Perhaps 1.0-1.5 pounds that I haven't had previously.
And, even worse, the Tilt values came out so whacked that the software wouldn't save the Profile.
What makes Tilt drop like a rock?
What should I be doing different to get better results? I just want the thing to work.
The Friction values seem really high -- 27-30. Is that normal? On my first few sets of coast-downs, I was getting 9-10. The last ones (in prior posts above) were 14-17. This time they are almost double that and almost triple the values I've gotten multiple times before.
What affects Friction values? Same tires, same pressure, same bike. If memory serves, my prior calibration rides did not include water bottles. This time, I was planning a long ride, so I had 2 full water bottles and some energy bars in my jersey pockets. Perhaps 1.0-1.5 pounds that I haven't had previously.
And, even worse, the Tilt values came out so whacked that the software wouldn't save the Profile.
What makes Tilt drop like a rock?
What should I be doing different to get better results? I just want the thing to work.
- Attachments
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- iBike - 2008-11-24 MacArthur 4.5m v2.JPG (117.32 KiB) Viewed 10371 times
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- iBike mount close v2.JPG (186.51 KiB) Viewed 10368 times
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- iBike mount whole bike v2.JPG (224.08 KiB) Viewed 10370 times
Jim Mason
C'dale SuperSix, Specialized Transition, Ibis Mojo, Orbea cx
C'dale SuperSix, Specialized Transition, Ibis Mojo, Orbea cx
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Re: Typical values for iBike parameters?
Yes...I see your point. But, as I've come to find out, EVERY power meter has it's "issues"...the real key to using them effectively IMHO is to know the "Achille's heel" of each one and then take steps to minimize the occurrence and/or effects of those "issues"travispape wrote: Yes, I have the PT set to auto-zero and I make sure to coast do let it zero. The PT answer usually matches the expected result based on the time to ride my commute route, which I know very well by now. If it doesn't match, I can usually trace it back to forgetting to let the auto-zero happen after a temperature change.
I'm riding a prototype CinQo with an early revision of FW. I'm sure they were still working out the details of the calibration at the time and it starts to deviate on the coldest of mornings here. By the way, the CinQo has performed very well otherwise and based on your experience, it sounds like they have fixed the temperature-dependance that I'm seeing. I need to send it back to them to update the FW.
The point is, the iBike is performing well enough that it doesn't take much of an issue with a DFPM and it will perform better.

BTW, it looks like we're going to be seeing rain here over the next few days. I'll see if I can pop out a "Polar on a trainer" file for you during that time...
Re: Typical values for iBike parameters?
Hi MultiRider,
Send me an email with a couple of recent ride files (be sure that your profile is attached) and I'd be glad to help you out. My email is atimmer@velocomp.com
Thanks,
Aaron
Send me an email with a couple of recent ride files (be sure that your profile is attached) and I'd be glad to help you out. My email is atimmer@velocomp.com
Thanks,
Aaron