Aeropod v2

Post Reply
refthimos
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:38 pm

Aeropod v2

Post by refthimos »

I'm not sure I'll get my Aeropod to work. I tried pairing, calibration ride, etc but I \got wonky "CdA" reading in Garmin Connect during and after these efforts and the Isaac software seem to indicate that CdA was not a "Signal Available in Current Ride File."

I'll try again, there is a good chance I messed something up, thought the calibration ride did show my "Watts" go from 0-50, then after stopping, rising first to 70W and then 100W. So who knows what went wrong.

With that, it would seem this whole process could be made much easier with a couple changes to Aeropod. Thus I have titled this thread "Aeropod v2" to discuss changes that we think would improve this device. For me, #1 is easy.

#1 - Change the location of the light! I imagine the vast majority of Aeropod users will mount Aeopod under their TT bars. How are you supposed to see the little light on the side of Aeropod when its mounted under your TT bars? For me, and I imagine many others, the simple answer is that you can't. If Aeropod's light was at the front/top, near the pitot tube, I would be able to see it, as I have my Aeropod mounted with a flat adhesive GoPro mount right under the stem area of my integrated TT bars. Or like GoPro does and include multiple lights so you can see them from different angles. As it is, the lights are worthless to me unless I'm stopped and can poke my head around and look under my TT bars.

#2 - Create an app to guide through the various pairing/calibration processes. It's easy to follow along with button processes and light sequences when sitting on our couch or in our garage, but when you're out in the field and kitted up, it's not as easy to remember all the procedures for pairing and calibration. This is exacerbated by the fact that many of us can't see the light when we are riding. If there was (even a very simple) app that walked us through these processes, i.e. "CONGRATS - YOUR SENSORS ARE NOW CALIBRATED. NOW RIDE TO THE START OF YOUR CALIBRATION RIDE; STOP AND CLICK NEXT" followed by "START THE RETURN LEG OF YOUR CALIBRATION RIDE" followed by "CONTINUE RIDING" followed by "SLOW AND TURN AROUND SAFELY; STOP AND CLICK NEXT" followed by "START THE RETURN LEG OF YOUR CALIBRATION RIDE" followed by "CONTINUE RIDING" , etc... this would make things a ton more user-friendly.
Velocomp
Velocomp CEO
Posts: 7793
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:43 am

Re: Aeropod v2

Post by Velocomp »

refthimos wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:59 pm I'm not sure I'll get my Aeropod to work. I tried pairing, calibration ride, etc but I \got wonky "CdA" reading in Garmin Connect during and after these efforts and the Isaac software seem to indicate that CdA was not a "Signal Available in Current Ride File."

I'll try again, there is a good chance I messed something up, thought the calibration ride did show my "Watts" go from 0-50, then after stopping, rising first to 70W and then 100W. So who knows what went wrong.

With that, it would seem this whole process could be made much easier with a couple changes to Aeropod. Thus I have titled this thread "Aeropod v2" to discuss changes that we think would improve this device. For me, #1 is easy.

#1 - Change the location of the light! I imagine the vast majority of Aeropod users will mount Aeopod under their TT bars. How are you supposed to see the little light on the side of Aeropod when its mounted under your TT bars? For me, and I imagine many others, the simple answer is that you can't. If Aeropod's light was at the front/top, near the pitot tube, I would be able to see it, as I have my Aeropod mounted with a flat adhesive GoPro mount right under the stem area of my integrated TT bars. Or like GoPro does and include multiple lights so you can see them from different angles. As it is, the lights are worthless to me unless I'm stopped and can poke my head around and look under my TT bars.

#2 - Create an app to guide through the various pairing/calibration processes. It's easy to follow along with button processes and light sequences when sitting on our couch or in our garage, but when you're out in the field and kitted up, it's not as easy to remember all the procedures for pairing and calibration. This is exacerbated by the fact that many of us can't see the light when we are riding. If there was (even a very simple) app that walked us through these processes, i.e. "CONGRATS - YOUR SENSORS ARE NOW CALIBRATED. NOW RIDE TO THE START OF YOUR CALIBRATION RIDE; STOP AND CLICK NEXT" followed by "START THE RETURN LEG OF YOUR CALIBRATION RIDE" followed by "CONTINUE RIDING" followed by "SLOW AND TURN AROUND SAFELY; STOP AND CLICK NEXT" followed by "START THE RETURN LEG OF YOUR CALIBRATION RIDE" followed by "CONTINUE RIDING" , etc... this would make things a ton more user-friendly.
It sounds like the calibration process was successful: "0-70, then to 100".

Please post a .ibr ride file and we will check it out!

MAKE SURE your AP is set to profile 4.

#1) During calibration and day-to-day use the light is not really necessary. The primary purpose of the light is for pairing and, prior to riding, that AP is paired to the speed sensor.

Also, as easy it is to imagine the light in a different location, that change would require a complete redesign of the circuit board and plastics.

#2) We have created a youtube video that guides users through the pairing and calibration processes. Watch it from your smartphone! It's available here:

https://youtu.be/198XSnl6gnA

https://velocompforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=98&t=4835
John Hamann
refthimos
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:38 pm

Re: Aeropod v2

Post by refthimos »

I don't think it worked, but here is what I see in the "iBike Rides" folder from this morning.
Attachments
iBike_11_06_2018_0757_2_Miles_HiDef.ibr
(40.22 KiB) Downloaded 203 times
iBike_11_06_2018_0733_1_Miles_HiDef.ibr
(34 KiB) Downloaded 188 times
iBike_11_06_2018_0730_1_Miles_HiDef.ibr
(20.7 KiB) Downloaded 192 times
Velocomp
Velocomp CEO
Posts: 7793
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:43 am

Re: Aeropod v2

Post by Velocomp »

Hmm...these are very odd ride files:

1) Your 730 ride is nonsensical

2) The 733 and 757 rides have "0" for speed sensor ID, even though you have OK-looking speed data in your ride files. Are you using a PT hub? If so, then this would explain the "0" for speed sensor ID. Otherwise, this is a mystery...

3) All the rides seem to cut-off at 5 minutes. Are you touching AP button?

4) You have a HR strap paired to your AP, so I can't see CdA data in the ride file

I would do the following:

1) Do a hard-reset of AP. Press-hold AP button for about 12 seconds; after 4 seconds its light will start flashing--continue holding it until the light goes out momentarily, then starts flashing again. Release the button. This completes the hard reset

2) Connect AP to Isaac and confirm with "Device/Set Active Profile in Device" that you are using profile 4. If not, make profile 4 the active profile

3) Make sure your HR strap is OFF and far away from your bike, wake up your speed and DFPM sensors, then do a new sensor scan

4) A new sensor scan will force a calibration ride. Please do the cal ride, then post some ride files afterwards.
John Hamann
refthimos
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:38 pm

Re: Aeropod v2

Post by refthimos »

I'm pretty sure I have more very odd ride files from this morning, because once again the calibration ride seemed to work, i.e. watts went 0 to 50, I stopped, light was solid red when I turned around and stopped, restarted and watts went to 70, continued until they reached 100, continued for some time after that to give AP time to settle itself or whatever it does, but the CdA displayed in Connect IQ never matched what I was doing on the bike and doesn't seem to show in Isaac.
Attachments
iBike_09_17_2018_0016_12_Miles_HiDef.ibr
(448.75 KiB) Downloaded 181 times
iBike_09_17_2018_0010_2_Miles_HiDef.ibr
(40.74 KiB) Downloaded 188 times
Velocomp
Velocomp CEO
Posts: 7793
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:43 am

Re: Aeropod v2

Post by Velocomp »

Your 12 mile ride tells the story:

1) your wind speed looks fine; this means the calibration was good

2) your measured, default CdA is 0.270. Are you riding a TT bike?

3) HR channel shows CdA data. To get CdA from HR, multiply by 4 and divide by 1000. So, HR of 100 is a CdA of .400

4) the only CdA oddity I see in your ride file is on the hill, where CdA drops. This is something we will investigate in our algorithms.

5) It's hard to comment on CdA without understanding better "what I was doing on the bike"
John Hamann
refthimos
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:38 pm

Re: Aeropod v2

Post by refthimos »

Yes, TT bike. I moved back and forth between the base bars and TT extensions a decent amount to see the affect that would have on CdA shown in the Garmin Connect app, but it didn't seem to have much effect, and if anything it seemed like CdA moved the opposite direction of what it should have, e.g. CdA decreasing despite moving from the TT extensions to the base bars.

I also noted that CdA changed quite slowly - is that by design, i.e. is the CdA shown in the Garmin Connect app smoothed or otherwise altered so that it's not jumpy? I was intentionally sitting up to catch air while in the base bars and CdA hardly changed (in fact, it seemed more often that not that it decreased).

Maybe I will try a couple A/B runs over a large loop, where I will stay entirely on the base bar and then entirely in the TT extensions and see how that works.

Is there any plan to be able to display CdA in Isaac rather than applying the CAD * 4 / 1000 to the Cad (rpm) data?
Velocomp
Velocomp CEO
Posts: 7793
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:43 am

Re: Aeropod v2

Post by Velocomp »

refthimos wrote: Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:39 pm Yes, TT bike. I moved back and forth between the base bars and TT extensions a decent amount to see the affect that would have on CdA shown in the Garmin Connect app, but it didn't seem to have much effect, and if anything it seemed like CdA moved the opposite direction of what it should have, e.g. CdA decreasing despite moving from the TT extensions to the base bars.

I also noted that CdA changed quite slowly - is that by design, i.e. is the CdA shown in the Garmin Connect app smoothed or otherwise altered so that it's not jumpy? I was intentionally sitting up to catch air while in the base bars and CdA hardly changed (in fact, it seemed more often that not that it decreased).

Maybe I will try a couple A/B runs over a large loop, where I will stay entirely on the base bar and then entirely in the TT extensions and see how that works.

Is there any plan to be able to display CdA in Isaac rather than applying the CAD * 4 / 1000 to the Cad (rpm) data?
1) CdA change is slow, by design. It takes about 90 seconds for changes to be significant, and 3 minutes for changes to stabilize.

2) How is your AP attached to your bike? Please post images

3) A larger loop would be better.

4) We are working on changes to Isaac for the HR/CdA signal.
John Hamann
DavidTriska
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:50 pm

Re: Aeropod v2

Post by DavidTriska »

In terms of CdA changes, it is worth noting that at the Silverstone wind tunnel a *single* run is 4-5 minutes (ie takes that long to get meaningful data). Boardman tunnel is 2 minutes (built for bikes not F1 so shorter run time).

So realistically having short smoothing *may*, and probably would, create a random number generator.


Having said that - it would be nice to have the option to play with, but have the Velocomp recommended default as an option

One thing to note is that 90s is realistically a little long to make race feedback for short course races of 25 miles or less useful
BillOsler
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:10 am

Re: Aeropod v2

Post by BillOsler »

refthimos wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:59 pm
#2 - Create an app to guide through the various pairing/calibration processes. It's easy to follow along with button processes and light sequences when sitting on our couch or in our garage, but when you're out in the field and kitted up, it's not as easy to remember all the procedures for pairing and calibration. This is exacerbated by the fact that many of us can't see the light when we are riding. If there was (even a very simple) app that walked us through these processes, i.e. "CONGRATS - YOUR SENSORS ARE NOW CALIBRATED. NOW RIDE TO THE START OF YOUR CALIBRATION RIDE; STOP AND CLICK NEXT" followed by "START THE RETURN LEG OF YOUR CALIBRATION RIDE" followed by "CONTINUE RIDING" followed by "SLOW AND TURN AROUND SAFELY; STOP AND CLICK NEXT" followed by "START THE RETURN LEG OF YOUR CALIBRATION RIDE" followed by "CONTINUE RIDING" , etc... this would make things a ton more user-friendly.
This is EXACTLY why I chose to buy a Newton instead of Powerpod despite the Powerpod's lower price.
Given a choice between the Aeropod and a slightly less functional device with an actual user interface I'd go for less features with better ease of use. Decoding flashing lights is an interface method that should have died years go.
Velocomp
Velocomp CEO
Posts: 7793
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:43 am

Re: Aeropod v2

Post by Velocomp »

Ouch, cut us a little slack... :-)

The Newton includes our power measurement technology AND our built-in display. That means that we can design the Newton user interface (display) to show messages. Also, Newton has a 5 button control, which adds flexibility. Unfortunately, in the world of Garmin dominance not enough people wanted a combined power meter/display...Newton was discontinued in 2016.

With PowerPod/AeroPod, the only user interface we can control is one button, the light, and the wattage reported. We use all to communicate information.

Most of the light interface involves one-time sensor pairing and one-time calibration. After that, the only thing you need to see is solid green when you first turn-on the unit.

All of that said, we ARE working with Everysight Raptor to add more user feedback through their glasses. It will be great...stay tuned!
John Hamann
BillOsler
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:10 am

Re: Aeropod v2

Post by BillOsler »

Velocomp wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:52 am Ouch, cut us a little slack... :-)

The Newton includes our power measurement technology AND our built-in display. That means that we can design the Newton user interface (display) to show messages. Also, Newton has a 5 button control, which adds flexibility. Unfortunately, in the world of Garmin dominance not enough people wanted a combined power meter/display...Newton was discontinued in 2016.

With PowerPod/AeroPod, the only user interface we can control is one button, the light, and the wattage reported. We use all to communicate information.

Most of the light interface involves one-time sensor pairing and one-time calibration. After that, the only thing you need to see is solid green when you first turn-on the unit.

All of that said, we ARE working with Everysight Raptor to add more user feedback through their glasses. It will be great...stay tuned!
The thing is you already have a viable way to provide a usable interface ... the Powerhouse app. There's no reason it could not tell a user what devices are connected to the Aeropod. There's no reason it could not offer a good bit more configuration capabilities.
I don't necessarily need a display on the Aeropod but I do need some ability to check on its status and that is such a basic usability issue that it is astonishing to me that you have not already included those features. Counting the number of red/yellow/green flashes only works if I have a cheat-sheet handy AND if I can see the lights clearly AND if there are no distractions.
None of those conditions are a given, and on a sunny day in North Carolina in the summertime those flashing LEDs are NOT going to be very visible during the middle of the day.
It should not be necessary for users to struggle with that sort of thing.
DavidTriska
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:50 pm

Re: Aeropod v2

Post by DavidTriska »

BillOsler wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:46 pm
Velocomp wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:52 am Ouch, cut us a little slack... :-)

The Newton includes our power measurement technology AND our built-in display. That means that we can design the Newton user interface (display) to show messages. Also, Newton has a 5 button control, which adds flexibility. Unfortunately, in the world of Garmin dominance not enough people wanted a combined power meter/display...Newton was discontinued in 2016.

With PowerPod/AeroPod, the only user interface we can control is one button, the light, and the wattage reported. We use all to communicate information.

Most of the light interface involves one-time sensor pairing and one-time calibration. After that, the only thing you need to see is solid green when you first turn-on the unit.

All of that said, we ARE working with Everysight Raptor to add more user feedback through their glasses. It will be great...stay tuned!
The thing is you already have a viable way to provide a usable interface ... the Powerhouse app. There's no reason it could not tell a user what devices are connected to the Aeropod. There's no reason it could not offer a good bit more configuration capabilities.
I don't necessarily need a display on the Aeropod but I do need some ability to check on its status and that is such a basic usability issue that it is astonishing to me that you have not already included those features. Counting the number of red/yellow/green flashes only works if I have a cheat-sheet handy AND if I can see the lights clearly AND if there are no distractions.
None of those conditions are a given, and on a sunny day in North Carolina in the summertime those flashing LEDs are NOT going to be very visible during the middle of the day.
It should not be necessary for users to struggle with that sort of thing.

I would love to see a beefed up version of powerhouse, it would be really useful. I appreciate that you have noted that app development is tricky for some of those features but would agree that a status readout and ability to initiate calibration with a progress marker would be ace and solve a lot of user problems
BillOsler
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:10 am

Re: Aeropod v2

Post by BillOsler »

Velocomp wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:52 am Most of the light interface involves one-time sensor pairing and one-time calibration. After that, the only thing you need to see is solid green when you first turn-on the unit.

All of that said, we ARE working with Everysight Raptor to add more user feedback through their glasses. It will be great...stay tuned!
Whatever you work out with respect to the Raptor glasses SHOULD NOT be viewed as an acceptable alternative to providing a viable interface for the Aeropod. Asking users to buy a device that costs even more than the Aeropod itself so they can get basic functionality is not reasonable.

Maybe I've missed something along the way but I don't see how pairing and calibration are one-time events. The instructions recommend calibration prior to any CdA testing so it clearly is not "one time" and unless I've missed something calibration is triggered by re-pairing sensors so that is not a one-time event either.

Also, Interacting with the Aeropod is NOT something that happens only at setup. It is critical to understanding why output from the Aeropod does not make sense when there are problems. "Why did my power display go to zero", "Why can't I see cadence data", "Why is that light flashing" are all questions that I have had to answer during my handful of rides with the Aeropod and I'm sure there are more that will come up in the future. Checking Isaac when I encounter a problem during a ride simply is not an option. Carrying a user manual on the ride should not be necessary.
Velocomp
Velocomp CEO
Posts: 7793
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:43 am

Re: Aeropod v2

Post by Velocomp »

BillOsler wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:28 am
Maybe I've missed something along the way but I don't see how pairing and calibration are one-time events. The instructions recommend calibration prior to any CdA testing so it clearly is not "one time" and unless I've missed something calibration is triggered by re-pairing sensors so that is not a one-time event either.

Also, Interacting with the Aeropod is NOT something that happens only at setup. It is critical to understanding why output from the Aeropod does not make sense when there are problems. "Why did my power display go to zero", "Why can't I see cadence data", "Why is that light flashing" are all questions that I have had to answer during my handful of rides with the Aeropod and I'm sure there are more that will come up in the future. Checking Isaac when I encounter a problem during a ride simply is not an option. Carrying a user manual on the ride should not be necessary.
We agree that carrying a user manual is not an option. But most cyclists carry a smartphone. So, to help-out we've made a couple of 1 minute videos you can view from your smartphone.

There are three events where AeroPod lights have utility: pairing, calibration ride, and starting a new ride.

1) AeroPod sensor Pairing

A MAJOR CAUTION: WHEN PAIRING AEROPOD, MAKE SURE THERE ARE NO EXTRANEOUS ANT+ SENSORS NEARBY!

https://youtu.be/3D8Opaegawo

2) Calibration ride

https://youtu.be/56q37psLVXk

3) Waking up AeroPod for a new ride

Awaken your bike sensors. Awaken AeroPod. When its status light is solid green, you're ready to go!

WHAT IF SOMETHING IS WRONG?

AeroPod is one of 5 power-related components on your bike: the speed sensor, cadence sensor, direct force power meter, and bike computer are the others (if you have a HR strap that would add, too). All of these components must be set up and operating properly for AeroPod to do its job.

If AeroPod light is solid green then it is operating and receiving speed sensor data. If something is still not right...the problem is not AeroPod.

The best way to diagnose other problems is with your bike computer. Use its display to check for proper operation of sensors. (EDITORIAL OPINION: THE GARMIN USER INTERFACE IS AWFUL AND IT IS NOT OUR FAULT). :-)
John Hamann
DavidTriska
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:50 pm

Re: Aeropod v2

Post by DavidTriska »

in fairness, I thought the Newton interface was complicated and this was a step up. After a couple of runs I've got quite used to the lights.
BillOsler
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:10 am

Re: Aeropod v2

Post by BillOsler »

Velocomp wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:58 am
WHAT IF SOMETHING IS WRONG?

AeroPod is one of 5 power-related components on your bike: the speed sensor, cadence sensor, direct force power meter, and bike computer are the others (if you have a HR strap that would add, too). All of these components must be set up and operating properly for AeroPod to do its job.

If AeroPod light is solid green then it is operating and receiving speed sensor data. If something is still not right...the problem is not AeroPod.

The best way to diagnose other problems is with your bike computer. Use its display to check for proper operation of sensors. (EDITORIAL OPINION: THE GARMIN USER INTERFACE IS AWFUL AND IT IS NOT OUR FAULT). :-)
We may have to agree to disagree on this. I can imagine any number of scenarios, some more realistic than others, that would allow everything on the Garmin to look just fine while at the same time allowing the Aeropod to be improperly paired. Some might be due to user error. Others might be due to unknown/forgotten Ant+ devices in the vicinity.
If memory serves my Newton used to sometimes try to pair with itself instead of my DFPM or at least it sometimes ended up showing its own Ant+ID in the DFPM field in Isaac and it was not unusual for the Newton to fail to identify one or more of my sensors even though the Garmin DID identify them. Sometimes it even "paired" with a random Ant+ID even though I was out in the middle of a parking lot with neither cars nor bikes nor people other than myself anywhere in sight. Electrical interference maybe? Gremlins in the Newton? I don't know.
All of that comes under the general category of "stuff happens".
You are correct that ideally if the Garmin shows everything working the Aeropod will be correctly paired but that's not the world I live in. I'd love to be able to do my pairing/configuration in a Faraday cage but that's not realistic.
Things don't always work correctly, Ant+ devices don't always pair in a timely fashion and sometimes the pairing depends on the relative locations of the disparate devices. IMCO it is NOT reasonable to assume that the pairing will always go equally smoothly (or equally badly) for both the Garmin and the Aeropod.
Maybe it's just me and everybody else is OK living with the ambiguity but I would DEFINITELY find it reassuring to be able to verify correct pairing of all devices prior to beginning a series of CdA tests. I don't have much free time and wasting it fiddling with devices is not on my to-do list.
Velocomp
Velocomp CEO
Posts: 7793
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:43 am

Re: Aeropod v2

Post by Velocomp »

BillOsler wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:43 pm
We may have to agree to disagree on this. I can imagine any number of scenarios, some more realistic than others, that would allow everything on the Garmin to look just fine while at the same time allowing the Aeropod to be improperly paired. Some might be due to user error. Others might be due to unknown/forgotten Ant+ devices in the vicinity.
If memory serves my Newton used to sometimes try to pair with itself instead of my DFPM or at least it sometimes ended up showing its own Ant+ID in the DFPM field in Isaac and it was not unusual for the Newton to fail to identify one or more of my sensors even though the Garmin DID identify them. Sometimes it even "paired" with a random Ant+ID even though I was out in the middle of a parking lot with neither cars nor bikes nor people other than myself anywhere in sight. Electrical interference maybe? Gremlins in the Newton? I don't know.
All of that comes under the general category of "stuff happens".
You are correct that ideally if the Garmin shows everything working the Aeropod will be correctly paired but that's not the world I live in. I'd love to be able to do my pairing/configuration in a Faraday cage but that's not realistic.
Things don't always work correctly, Ant+ devices don't always pair in a timely fashion and sometimes the pairing depends on the relative locations of the disparate devices. IMCO it is NOT reasonable to assume that the pairing will always go equally smoothly (or equally badly) for both the Garmin and the Aeropod.
Maybe it's just me and everybody else is OK living with the ambiguity but I would DEFINITELY find it reassuring to be able to verify correct pairing of all devices prior to beginning a series of CdA tests. I don't have much free time and wasting it fiddling with devices is not on my to-do list.
1) The ANT pairing process was completely overhauled in 2015. It is considerably different from Newton. We have 3 years of experience with the new system and, in our experience, it is very robust.

2) I have done pairings many, many times in the field with AeroPod. It has never failed.

3) You correctly point out that stray sensors are always a concern when performing a sensor pairing. I always look around to make sure I am 100 feet away from any other bikes.

4) AeroPod provides visual feedback when it pairs to a crank-arm cadence sensor, DFPM, and speed sensor. If you're 100 feet away from any other bikes, it's easy to confirm without ambiguity that AP has paired to your sensors.
John Hamann
BillOsler
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:10 am

Re: Aeropod v2

Post by BillOsler »

Velocomp wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:26 am
2) I have done pairings many, many times in the field with AeroPod. It has never failed.

...

4) AeroPod provides visual feedback when it pairs to a crank-arm cadence sensor, DFPM, and speed sensor. If you're 100 feet away from any other bikes, it's easy to confirm without ambiguity that AP has paired to your sensors.
As I said before I think we may have to agree to disagree.
Re: Point 2: Your experience and mine differ. I HAVE had problems pairing Aeropod in the field.
Re: Point 4: Yes, Aeropod gives some feedback of a type that only a gadget geek could love. "Easy" is subjective and depends on a number of variables. I do not find it to be easy when I'm out in the field actually trying to use the Aeropod. The "feedback" is of a type that I personally have thus far found to be useless and, given the fact that there are viable alternatives I consider the lack of useful feedback to be a serious deficiency. MAYBE I could get a clear view of the Aeropod if I rearranged everything on my handlebar but so far I have not found a way to get a clear view of that tiny status light while it is on the bike. Yes I can see the little blinky light while sitting here at my dining room table but that doesn't help much when I'm actually using it.
One of the issues I have had with Aeropod is that since the unit can't/won't use the cadence data from my C1 DFPMs I have to have a separate cadence sensor when I use Aeropod. The Garmin does not collect data from that sensor as best I can tell, presumably because it "knows" that the DFPM provides cadence data. I don't know whether that can be "fixed" but "fixing" that issue could have undesirable impact on the syncing of power/cadence data. As a result the Garmin is not useful for testing whether the cadence sensor is functioning and, since the sensor is Ant+ only, my iPhone apps don't offer any help either. IOW there is no obvious way to tell whether the cadence sensor is working.
To be sure I could carry yet another device to test whether the cadence sensor is functioning but why in the world should that be necessary? In any event all I would learn from that superfluous device is whether the cadence sensor is broadcasting, not whether Aeropod has paired. There is already an app that lets the phone communicate with Aeropod so why is it that the app cannot report on Aeropod's status? That is such an obvious design flaw that I find it astounding.
I might be more tolerant of this sort of deficiency if I had been able to get useful information from Aeropod but thus far the CdA test results I have seen don't make much sense. My reported CdA while riding in the drops on my road bike is HIGHER than the reported CdA riding on the hoods by about 5+%. My reported CdA wearing a skin suit and TT helmet was HIGHER than the reported CdA wearing a jersey and a regular road helmet. None of my tests were done under ideal conditions so I'm not writing the Aeropod off ... yet ... but it's not off to a good start. I've used all of the equipment/clothing enough to know that I ride faster in the drops than on the hoods (though not by a lot) and I'm fairly confident that the speedsuit/TT helmet make me faster, hence my suspicion that there are issues with the aeropod's accuracy in my tests to date.
Velocomp
Velocomp CEO
Posts: 7793
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:43 am

Re: Aeropod v2

Post by Velocomp »

1) Are you reporting that AeroPod ride files do not record cadence data from your C1? That would be very odd; the cadence data is included in the C1 power field. If you're "receiving" DFPM power you should be receiving cadence.

2) The only circumstance in which AP requires a separate, crank-mounted cadence sensor is when you are using PowerStroke analysis. If you're not using PowerStroke then you can take your cadence sensor off the bike.

3) Please post a ride file with some of your AP testing, and also some photos showing how you have AP mounted to your bike. It sounds like something is not right...
John Hamann
BillOsler
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:10 am

Re: Aeropod v2

Post by BillOsler »

Velocomp wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:40 pm 1) Are you reporting that AeroPod ride files do not record cadence data from your C1? That would be very odd; the cadence data is included in the C1 power field. If you're "receiving" DFPM power you should be receiving cadence.
That is what appears to have happened. There are other problems with this ride file but the relevant issues are: There was no cadence sensor, just the C1 DFPM. The cadence in the calibration ride is listed in Isaac as 32 at all points I checked. The subsequent ride file showed a cadence of either 0 or 32 at all points as best I can tell. IIRC my Garmin did record cadence when it was paired with the C1 but did not record cadence when it was paired with the Aeropod.
iBike_11_25_2018_1317_2_Miles_HiDef.ibr
Calibration ride
(50.32 KiB) Downloaded 135 times
Unfortunately, for that file I accidentally let Aeropod pair with my HRM. That didn't keep the ConnectIQ app from displaying values for CdA, it just made them meaningless. My impression is that the CdA estimates calculated in Isaac should still be reliable?
Assuming that the calculations in Isaac are independent of the heartrate channel this is the relevant portion of the CdA testing I subsequently did at the YMCA quarter mile track.
iBike_11_25_2018_1408_4_Miles_HiDef.ibr
Excerpt from CdA testing at the YMCA track
(763.01 KiB) Downloaded 128 times
Lap 1 was recorded on the hoods, Lap 3 in the drops.
For the testing I rode laps of the track with gradually increasing speed then once I was done I coasted or soft pedaled back to the starting point on the track and repeated the process. I have other files, this was just the handiest.
I redacted that second file since the GPS data showed where I live but I sent the entire file to Tom Gore when I discovered I was unable to use PowerStroke on the data.
I used the supplied mount on my TT bike and a K-Edge mount for the road bike. I wanted to make sure the Aeropod was well away from the lights and camera on the road bike. I'm afraid my experiments with the TT bike have not been interpretable due to other issues (mostly operator error)
IntensoAeropodSetup.jpg
IntensoAeropodSetup.jpg (101.82 KiB) Viewed 8319 times
Velocomp
Velocomp CEO
Posts: 7793
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:43 am

Re: Aeropod v2

Post by Velocomp »

I think there are several things going on:

1) You are on a loop that appears to be .22 miles in circumference (in the instructions we recommend a loop of at least 1 mile in circumference).

2) The straight sections of the track, where CdA data will be most stable, appears to be only .06 miles long (each side). This is way too short for data gathering

3) Though the track is flat (a good thing!) the curves are not helpful to CdA analysis. Essentially, in the curves the bike is angled, which can affect CdA measurement

4) The slower the bike speed, the less accurate the CdA data will be. About ½ of each of your tests are at speeds below 15 mph. It may be that the small size of the track is limiting your bike speed.

5) In this ride file you do not have a separate cadence sensor, yet your cadence recorded is zero. We have not seen data from C1 before; it is possible something is different about the C1 data packet...we will have to look in to this.

6) Whether or not HR is paired to AeroPod, the CdA values it transmits to Garmin are unchanged.

I think you will get better results if you can find a different place for your testing, and if you do your testing at higher speeds.
John Hamann
BillOsler
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:10 am

Re: Aeropod v2

Post by BillOsler »

Thanks for the feedback. I think the low average speed reflects the fact that I was trying to ramp the speed up. For CdA testing is it better to have a constant speed? When I planned the tests I assumed (possibly incorrectly) that, as is the case for linear regression, a wide spread of input values would be helpful.
I don't recall seeing a recommended minimum loop diameter; just now when I looked at the Troubleshooting and CdA measurement documents I did not find anything of that sort. It sounds like I'm missing some relevant documentation. Any suggestions where to look for it?
I'm told that the reason the C1 cadence cannot be used for PowerStroke is that the C1 transmits cadence as RPMs rather than as crank location/angle. I don't know if that is relevant to the lack of cadence data when I don't have a separate cadence sensor, but you can see why I think it is important to know whether the cadence sensor has in fact paired with Aeropod. The situation would be a LITTLE less problematic if there were a good way to measure battery strength for each sensor because that would eliminate one common cause of failure to pair.
I admit to some curiosity: if Aeropod wants to estimate cadence from crank location information doesn't that run some risk of confusing, for example, a cadence of 60 with a cadence of 120 if the sensor is broadcasting at 1 Hz?
Velocomp
Velocomp CEO
Posts: 7793
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:43 am

Re: Aeropod v2

Post by Velocomp »

BillOsler wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:34 pm
I don't recall seeing a recommended minimum loop diameter; just now when I looked at the Troubleshooting and CdA measurement documents I did not find anything of that sort. It sounds like I'm missing some relevant documentation. Any suggestions where to look for it?

I'm told that the reason the C1 cadence cannot be used for PowerStroke is that the C1 transmits cadence as RPMs rather than as crank location/angle. I don't know if that is relevant to the lack of cadence data when I don't have a separate cadence sensor, but you can see why I think it is important to know whether the cadence sensor has in fact paired with Aeropod. The situation would be a LITTLE less problematic if there were a good way to measure battery strength for each sensor because that would eliminate one common cause of failure to pair.

I admit to some curiosity: if Aeropod wants to estimate cadence from crank location information doesn't that run some risk of confusing, for example, a cadence of 60 with a cadence of 120 if the sensor is broadcasting at 1 Hz?
1. From page 18 of AeroPod Operating Instructions: "Test route. Ride the SAME route for each test. A one mile loop without abrupt turns, or an out-and-back route at least one mile long in each direction, works well."

2. We have seen LOTS of DFPM products, both crank and pedal, where cadence RPM is transmitted. AeroPod receives that cadence data just fine. Why the C1 cadence does not work is a mystery... The primary reason I have seen for the separate cadence sensor not pairing is because the cadence sensor is OFF. The only way I have overcome this problem is to ride my bike for 30 seconds, before performing the pairing process. I know this is not a perfect solution, but we aren't the ones who designed the cadence sensor. And remember: when AP pairs to a discrete cadence sensor, its status light will flash 3 times.

3. No. This is because the discrete cadence sensor data transmits the elapsed time between rotations.
John Hamann
Post Reply