Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

chef_sam
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Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by chef_sam »

I have the powerpod V3 set up to my Garmin 530 edge with individual speed 2 and cadence 2 sensors. Before I set up the powerpod cadence measurements were consistent. However, when I use the powerpod cadence measurements keep dropping from 85-90 to 60-65 every minute or two for 5-10 seconds. I've attached a figure showing these drops. It's perplexing. I don't think it's affecting speed or power measurements but it is messing with both average cadence and estimated gear ratios.

I messaged Garmin about it and they told me it was due to the powerpod since it is overriding the cadence data sent to the garmin.

How would I go about resolving this? I tried removing and re-added all devices, using bluetooth and ANT+,
Attachments
cadence drops.jpg
cadence drops.jpg (40.84 KiB) Viewed 5518 times

Velocomp
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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by Velocomp »

Our products are certified compatible by ANT+ (Garmin).

In other words...we are sending the data in accordance with the ANT spec. Why the 530 is having problems I cannot say.

The only thing I can suggest is that you pair PowerPod to your speed sensor, with your cadence sensor turned OFF, so that PowerPod does not pair to your cadence sensor.
Attachments
Screen Shot 2020-02-04 at 6.01.56 PM.png
Screen Shot 2020-02-04 at 6.01.56 PM.png (201.07 KiB) Viewed 5513 times
John Hamann

chef_sam
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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by chef_sam »

Thanks John I'll give this a try tomorrow when I go for a ride.

mir
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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by mir »

I see the certificate states firmware version 7.12. When do you expect to release this firmware version?

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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by Velocomp »

FW 712 is a minor update to 711 that is in production. It will be released soon but it has no bearing on this issue.
John Hamann

mir
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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by mir »

Ok.

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lorduintah
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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by lorduintah »

My PP-V3 shows FW 7.09 and does not indicate an update being available.

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CyclingTwoVlogger
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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by CyclingTwoVlogger »

lorduintah wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:52 pm
My PP-V3 shows FW 7.09 and does not indicate an update being available.
Same as mine.

mir
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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by mir »

lorduintah wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:52 pm
My PP-V3 shows FW 7.09 and does not indicate an update being available.
If I am not mistaken FW 7.09 is the latest for powerpod (v2?, v3) and fw 7.11 is the latest for aeropod.

chef_sam
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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by chef_sam »

Velocomp wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:03 pm
Our products are certified compatible by ANT+ (Garmin).

In other words...we are sending the data in accordance with the ANT spec. Why the 530 is having problems I cannot say.

The only thing I can suggest is that you pair PowerPod to your speed sensor, with your cadence sensor turned OFF, so that PowerPod does not pair to your cadence sensor.
Hi John,

I tried this, but it didn't seem to make a difference. I turned on the garmin and powerpod, spun the back wheel to activate the speed sensor and watched it connect to my garmin. The garmin showed the cadence sensor to be inactive. Then I went for a ride, but the cadence issues persisted. I tried removing and re-adding the cadence sensor but it made no difference. I've also tried connecting everything by bluetooth but have the same issue.

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lorduintah
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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by lorduintah »

Just curious -

I see you also have Garmin Sensors -

There are LEDs that will flash right after they wake up for a short time. If you do not see the flashing, the issue could be batteries...

I have the Garmin sensors (version 2) and the speed sensor is recommended to be mounted on the front wheel, not the rear. It may be that there is enough between the speed sensor and the PP that you are not reliably picking up the signal.

Have you a hard reset on the Edge 530 - and what firmware version do you have - I think there was at least one revision that did not capture the sensor pairing with 100% reliability.

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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by Velocomp »

chef_sam wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:24 pm
Velocomp wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:03 pm
Our products are certified compatible by ANT+ (Garmin).

In other words...we are sending the data in accordance with the ANT spec. Why the 530 is having problems I cannot say.

The only thing I can suggest is that you pair PowerPod to your speed sensor, with your cadence sensor turned OFF, so that PowerPod does not pair to your cadence sensor.
Hi John,

I tried this, but it didn't seem to make a difference. I turned on the garmin and powerpod, spun the back wheel to activate the speed sensor and watched it connect to my garmin. The garmin showed the cadence sensor to be inactive. Then I went for a ride, but the cadence issues persisted. I tried removing and re-adding the cadence sensor but it made no difference. I've also tried connecting everything by bluetooth but have the same issue.
Just checking: after you turned off your cadence sensor, did you do a new pairing to your PowerPod? A new pairing would remove any memory the PowerPod had of your cadence sensor. If you did not take this step then you should do a new pairing between PowerPod and your speed sensor, making sure your cadence sensor is off.

If you did a new sensor pairing and your cadence sensor was not paired to PowerPod, then I can say with 100% confidence that the problem is either your cadence sensor or your Garmin. PowerPod transmits power data, in accordance with the ANT+ spec. PowerPod has no knowledge of any other sensor on your bike; therefore, if there is an interference issue, the problem is with the other sensor or the Garmin.
John Hamann

chef_sam
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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by chef_sam »

Hi John,

I can't really turn off the cadence sensor as far as I know - it seems to auto-activate when spun and auto-shut-off. I just spun the back wheel (where the speed sensor is) until the speed sensor light turned on, avoiding moving the crank so the cadence sensor remained off/asleep. I did not do a new pairing to the powerpod, I will give that a try thanks. Just to clarify - you're suggesting I only pair the speed sensor to the powerpod, and do not try to pair the cadence sensor to it later, right? Will this lead to the powerpod to estimating power when I'm coasting?

chef_sam
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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by chef_sam »

lorduintah wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:40 pm
Just curious -

I see you also have Garmin Sensors -

There are LEDs that will flash right after they wake up for a short time. If you do not see the flashing, the issue could be batteries...

I have the Garmin sensors (version 2) and the speed sensor is recommended to be mounted on the front wheel, not the rear. It may be that there is enough between the speed sensor and the PP that you are not reliably picking up the signal.

Have you a hard reset on the Edge 530 - and what firmware version do you have - I think there was at least one revision that did not capture the sensor pairing with 100% reliability.
Thanks for the info. For some reason I thought it was supposed to go on the rear wheel, but now I don't know where I got that notion. I'm going to move it to the front wheel. I haven't done a hard reset on the 530, it is currently using software version 5.10.

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lorduintah
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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by lorduintah »

In case you do not have the link to the Update Page for the Edge 530 Firmware:

https://www8.garmin.com/support/downloa ... p?id=14953

They are presently listing a beta version of 5.28. It looks like 5.24 was the most recent previous version. What Garmin does do conveniently is to add the previous "stable" firmware version with the download of the latest beta - and a file that describes how to revert to that stable version if you run into problems with the beta download version. It is basically a simple file rename (from a portion of the contents of the download) and then copying that file to a location on the Garmin filesystem.

It is also a good idea after running any updater on these to do a reset on the Garmin Edge - seems that sometimes not everything from the previous version is accurately replaced. - Just a suggestion from the user forums.

Tom

chef_sam
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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by chef_sam »

lorduintah wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:40 am
In case you do not have the link to the Update Page for the Edge 530 Firmware:

https://www8.garmin.com/support/downloa ... p?id=14953

They are presently listing a beta version of 5.28. It looks like 5.24 was the most recent previous version. What Garmin does do conveniently is to add the previous "stable" firmware version with the download of the latest beta - and a file that describes how to revert to that stable version if you run into problems with the beta download version. It is basically a simple file rename (from a portion of the contents of the download) and then copying that file to a location on the Garmin filesystem.

It is also a good idea after running any updater on these to do a reset on the Garmin Edge - seems that sometimes not everything from the previous version is accurately replaced. - Just a suggestion from the user forums.

Tom
This is awesome thanks. I wasn't being prompted to update so I assumed all was up to date, but apparently not! I've updated it but did not reset, I didn't want to lose data. My next ride I'll also take John's suggestion r.e. PP pairing and hopefully between the two it will be resolved! If not, I'll try resetting the garmin.

chef_sam
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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by chef_sam »

Velocomp wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:45 pm
Just checking: after you turned off your cadence sensor, did you do a new pairing to your PowerPod? A new pairing would remove any memory the PowerPod had of your cadence sensor. If you did not take this step then you should do a new pairing between PowerPod and your speed sensor, making sure your cadence sensor is off.

If you did a new sensor pairing and your cadence sensor was not paired to PowerPod, then I can say with 100% confidence that the problem is either your cadence sensor or your Garmin. PowerPod transmits power data, in accordance with the ANT+ spec. PowerPod has no knowledge of any other sensor on your bike; therefore, if there is an interference issue, the problem is with the other sensor or the Garmin.
Ok - I tried only pairing to the speed sensor and it led to some other problems. I spun the wheel to awaken the sensor. Then I pressed the PP button and held for 4 seconds. It flashed green then went solid green, then went off. I went for a ride a few minutes later, but there was no power reading. I pressed the button, nothing happened. I stopped, kept trying to press the button, nothing. No light, no power reading. I held it for 4 seconds to try and pair again, nothing. 5, 6, 8 seconds, nothing. So I held it for 10+ seconds to hard reset, it flashed orange then turned off. I tried pairing again, nothing. I had to hard reset the unit 3 times before it would try pairing again. Even then, it would flash green then flash red, indicating the pairing wasn't successful. It took a few attempts before it paired, then prompted my Edge 530 to do a calibration. So I did, but several times into the calibration it would shut off after power reached 4 (out of 100). Eventually it went fully through the calibration. But unfortunately because I had woken the cadence sensor and there is no way to shut it off without just waiting 15 minutes, the cadence drops continued and I wasn't able to try again on this ride.

Why would my PP suddenly become unresponsive and require a hard reset, then wouldn't pair, then wouldn't calibrate? It was fully charged and it was working fine to re-pair the speed sensor earlier. I have to admit, this device is proving more challenging to use than I expected.

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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by Velocomp »

Please email technicalsupport@velocomp.com for next steps.
John Hamann

bluebarchetta
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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by bluebarchetta »

I’m getting a similar issue with my set up:
  • Powerpod V2
  • Garmin 1030
  • Garmin Cadence Sensor 2
When the PowerPod is on the cadence dropped to about 61 or 62 every 10 second or so. It stays at normal levels 85-95 if the PowerPod is off. All are latest firmware. I’ve changed the cadence sensor for another Garmin Cadence Sensor 2 but the issue is the same.

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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by Velocomp »

bluebarchetta wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:48 am
I’m getting a similar issue with my set up:
  • Powerpod V2
  • Garmin 1030
  • Garmin Cadence Sensor 2
When the PowerPod is on the cadence dropped to about 61 or 62 every 10 second or so. It stays at normal levels 85-95 if the PowerPod is off. All are latest firmware. I’ve changed the cadence sensor for another Garmin Cadence Sensor 2 but the issue is the same.
Please do the following:

1) In your Garmin setup, delete PowerPod as a power sensor.
2) Awaken your speed sensor only. Do NOT awaken your cadence sensor.
3) Confirm with your Garmin that your speed sensor is awake but that your cadence sensor is asleep.
4) Pair PowerPod to your speed sensor (press-hold button for 4 seconds, then release).
5) Pair PP to your Garmin. This will delete the cadence sensor from the PP profile
6) Do an O&B cal ride with your PP
7) Do a short ride. Do you see the cadence drop-out problem on your Garmin?
8) Use Isaac to download the PP ride file, and post the .ibr ride file on this thread
John Hamann

chef_sam
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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by chef_sam »

Velocomp wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:36 am
Please do the following:

1) In your Garmin setup, delete PowerPod as a power sensor.
2) Awaken your speed sensor only. Do NOT awaken your cadence sensor.
3) Confirm with your Garmin that your speed sensor is awake but that your cadence sensor is asleep.
4) Pair PowerPod to your speed sensor (press-hold button for 4 seconds, then release).
5) Pair PP to your Garmin. This will delete the cadence sensor from the PP profile
6) Do an O&B cal ride with your PP
7) Do a short ride. Do you see the cadence drop-out problem on your Garmin?
8) Use Isaac to download the PP ride file, and post the .ibr ride file on this thread

Hi John,

I spoke with Tom through messages to try and troubleshoot this issue and we were unable to resolve it. I am using the garmin magnetless speed and cadence sensors connected via ANT+. I've had the same problem when connected via Bluetooth though.

1) I removed all sensors and PP from my Garmin and did a hard reset of the PP.
2) Removed all sensors from the Garmin. I removed the batteries from the Speed and cadence sensors
3) Inserted new batteries backwards in sensors for 5-10 seconds to reset then inserted properly.
4) I set the PP up with a new profile on Issac.
5) Confirmed no sensors paired to my Garmin
6) Woke the speed sensor only and paired to my PP
7) Rode to a location to begin new calibration ride. I paired all sensors to my Garmin via ANT+ and completed a OB calibration ride
8) Did a 15 km OB back ride

During this ride I had no issues with drops as the cadence sensor was not paired to the PP. But I wanted to see if the issue persisted or if this process had "fixed" the issue. So I did another hard reset and this time paired both speed and cadence to the PP, did a new calibration ride, and did the same 15 km ride again. The cadence sensor drops returned and were even visible during the calibration ride.

-For the first ride, only the Gamrin recorded cadence data. No problems with cadence drops, average cadence 91 RPM
-For second ride both the PP and Garmin recorded cadence data and showed the same drops, reducing the average cadence to 86 RPM.

Somehow, connecting the PP causes the magnetless cadence sensor values to drop by 20 RPM intermittently. I don't know if this is a sensor problem or whether the PP somehow interrupts the sensor.

I attached ibr files for both rides. If you like I can send the calibration IBR files and my garmin ride files.

The bottom line is that i can use the cadence sensor but only if I don't connect it to the PP. Which is fine, but I'm concerned this will lead to less accurate power readings.
Attachments
PP_2020_02_17_1644_15_km - with cadence.ibr
(159.64 KiB) Downloaded 127 times
PP_2020_02_17_1604_15_km - no cadence .ibr
(145.2 KiB) Downloaded 139 times

Velocomp
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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by Velocomp »

I see two problems:

1) your 1604 "no cadence" ride shows a paired cadence sensor in its profile (the same cadence sensor ID as in your "paired cadence sensor" profile).
Screen Shot 2020-02-23 at 11.13.55 AM.png
Screen Shot 2020-02-23 at 11.13.55 AM.png (162.04 KiB) Viewed 5055 times
So, when you did your no-cadence pairing, your cadence sensor was on (if cadence sensor was off, wireless ID would be 0). Please do another PP pairing, making 100% sure your cadence sensor is off. After you do this, you can extract the profile in Isaac, and confirm that the cadence sensor wireless ID is "0".

When PP has "0" for the cadence sensor then PP won't retransmit any cadence signals, and the cadence signal you see on your Garmin will come directly from the cadence sensor.

2) Your 1644 ride reveals the cause of your cadence dropouts. What's happening is that PP is getting intermittent signals from the cadence sensor, causing cadence dropouts in PP. You can see this in your ride file by setting ride file filtering to 0.
Screen Shot 2020-02-23 at 11.04.38 AM.png
Screen Shot 2020-02-23 at 11.04.38 AM.png (216.8 KiB) Viewed 5055 times
When PP is paired with your cadence sensor, PP transmits BOTH power AND cadence signals together in the power channel (this is an ANT+ standard). So, your Garmin is reading the intermittent cadence numbers transmitted by PP.

I don't know why PP is having problems receiving a reliable cadence signal; it seems likely that your cadence sensor is not transmitting a strong signal.

I have been using a Garmin cadence sensor, identical to yours, for 4 years now, without problems. You might want to see if Garmin will swap your cadence sensor under warranty.

In the mean time, the easy workaround is to do a PP sensor pairing, making sure the cadence sensor is off. In this mode you won't directly get cadence data in your ride file, but you won't see dropouts either. After the ride you can merge your Garmin .gpx data into your PP ride file to add both cadence and GPS data to your Isaac ride file.
John Hamann

chef_sam
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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by chef_sam »

Velocomp wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:13 am
I see two problems:

1) your 1604 "no cadence" ride shows a paired cadence sensor in its profile (the same cadence sensor ID as in your "paired cadence sensor" profile).

Screen Shot 2020-02-23 at 11.13.55 AM.png

So, when you did your no-cadence pairing, your cadence sensor was on (if cadence sensor was off, wireless ID would be 0). Please do another PP pairing, making 100% sure your cadence sensor is off. After you do this, you can extract the profile in Isaac, and confirm that the cadence sensor wireless ID is "0".

When PP has "0" for the cadence sensor then PP won't retransmit any cadence signals, and the cadence signal you see on your Garmin will come directly from the cadence sensor.

2) Your 1644 ride reveals the cause of your cadence dropouts. What's happening is that PP is getting intermittent signals from the cadence sensor, causing cadence dropouts in PP. You can see this in your ride file by setting ride file filtering to 0.

Screen Shot 2020-02-23 at 11.04.38 AM.png

When PP is paired with your cadence sensor, PP transmits BOTH power AND cadence signals together in the power channel (this is an ANT+ standard). So, your Garmin is reading the intermittent cadence numbers transmitted by PP.

I don't know why PP is having problems receiving a reliable cadence signal; it seems likely that your cadence sensor is not transmitting a strong signal.

I have been using a Garmin cadence sensor, identical to yours, for 4 years now, without problems. You might want to see if Garmin will swap your cadence sensor under warranty.

In the mean time, the easy workaround is to do a PP sensor pairing, making sure the cadence sensor is off. In this mode you won't directly get cadence data in your ride file, but you won't see dropouts either. After the ride you can merge your Garmin .gpx data into your PP ride file to add both cadence and GPS data to your Isaac ride file.
Hi John,

Very strange, I don't understand why it would show the cadence sensor connected when the Garmin 530 showed it was inactive. It didn't collect any cadence data for the PP either, so it doesn't make sense. I will do it again with the battery out of the cadence sensor. I will also check in with Garmin about this. At this point, it does seem like it might be a sensor issue.

Thanks for troubleshooting with me.

chef_sam
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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by chef_sam »

I recalibrated and did another ride. I wanted to give the cadence another last shot just in case is was a weird pairing/setup. I deleted all sensors from my Garmin and reset my powerpod to remove all profiles/data in Isaac then deleted and reinstalled Isaac. I removed and replaced the batteries in the speed/cadence sensors with fresh ones, inserting backwards for 10 seconds first to "reset" them (not sure if this makes any difference). I connected the clean PP to Isaac and set up a new profile with my relevant info. I then paired the speed and cadence sensors to the PP and initiated the calibration (flashing green/red). I added the sensors back on my Garmin, went to my ride location and initiated the calibration. Did the calibration and with the cadence sensor but the drops returned.

So I removed the battery from the cadence sensor, hard reset the PP, and redid the calibration without the cadence sensor active. I then added the cadence sensor back to the garmin and rode. No drops, PP data looked good, lack of cadence sensor didn't really seem to make a noticeable difference to power values.

I got home and downloaded the PP data. Weirdly, there was only a single calibration file despite doing two calibrations, and it showed cadence values so it was the first one. But the ride file profile did not show a cadence sensor enabled, so it appears to not currently be active. I tweaked the calibration with the ride data, made no real difference, looks good comparable to estimates using online calculators for power based on similar input data (168-180 W).

If it helps in any way I've uploaded the ride file (I cut out the cool down portion at the end so it was a true out and back).

Otherwise, I am happy now. I will probably contact garmin but I'm not too worried about it as I don't plan to use the powerstroke software (neat but probably not useful for someone at my level).

Thanks for the assistance John and others.
Attachments
PP_2020_02_23_1427_51_km.ibr
(435.33 KiB) Downloaded 129 times

chef_sam
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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by chef_sam »

bluebarchetta wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:48 am
I’m getting a similar issue with my set up:
  • Powerpod V2
  • Garmin 1030
  • Garmin Cadence Sensor 2
When the PowerPod is on the cadence dropped to about 61 or 62 every 10 second or so. It stays at normal levels 85-95 if the PowerPod is off. All are latest firmware. I’ve changed the cadence sensor for another Garmin Cadence Sensor 2 but the issue is the same.

Hearing this tells me there is no reason for my to try swapping my Cadence 2 sensor now since it doesn't help.

Not sure why we're experiencing this but apparently most others are not. I've calibrated mine now without the cadence sensor paired, seems to work just fine though it would be nice to have it all working of course.

droffsite
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:26 pm

Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by droffsite »

I'm having the same issue (cadence drops to 64-66 periodically; most recent .ibr upload attached). Edge 830/Fenix 5x, speed and cadence 2, PowerPod V3. Same behavior with the Fenix as the Edge.

I'm happy to give the steps mentioned above a shot. Are there any downsides to not having the cadence sensor paired to the PowerPod? I should mention: I use PowerStroke, which I see cares about a cadence sensor.
Attachments
Velocomp_07_14_2020_1402_32_Miles_HiDef.ibr
(1.03 MiB) Downloaded 4 times

droffsite
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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by droffsite »

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

Velocomp
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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by Velocomp »

droffsite wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:03 pm
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
I would try a reset of your cadence sensor; remove its battery, put it in backwards for a moment, then reinstall properly. See if that helps.
John Hamann

droffsite
Posts: 9
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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by droffsite »

Tried that: same behavior.

Followed the procedure you described above for chef_sam. Now the Garmin file shows no cadence drops, but I can't see PowerStroke data without merging the .fit file, I guess.

Velocomp
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Re: Powerpod V3 causing drops in estimated cadence

Post by Velocomp »

droffsite wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:16 am
Tried that: same behavior.

Followed the procedure you described above for chef_sam. Now the Garmin file shows no cadence drops, but I can't see PowerStroke data without merging the .fit file, I guess.
I've just ordered a cadence 2 sensor. I will see if I can replicate the problem.

For what it's worth, PowerPod has been ANT+ certified, which means PowerPod passes all of the ANT+ tests that Garmin requires of manufacturers.
John Hamann

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