A couple of things I've noticed...

[gayeskin]

I have a little over 320 miles on the Newton and have noticed the following:

• 1. The TSS and IF are way over stated on the Newton display
  2. Fully charged battery lasted approximately 16 hours, no where near the 160 stated (using 5 sec)

Would you please review the calibration file to determine if the first point is not because of bad calibration. Power numbers seemed to be ok, just not the TSS and IF.

Seperately, when are we receiving the refund for the trade in? Package was sent back within 10 day period but have not seen anything on my CC statement.

Thanks for your help.

Nathan

[Velocomp]

4 responses:

1) For correct TSS and IF scores, your FTP needs to be set correctly in your Newton. Factory value is 80.6W; did you reset it to your measured value?

2) I'm very surprised by your battery life. We see a discharge rate of about 2.5% per hour. Since I happen to download my rides daily, my battery level never drops below 90%

3) Calibration files show the state of the Newton before the corrections are applied. So, please post a ride file that was made after the calibration ride

4) We are processing a ton of upgrade refunds. Yours was processed a few days ago and your refund should be credited to you by June 27.

[gayeskin]

Thanks for you quick response John. I will verify the FTP and send you a ride file this evening. I will monitor the battery over the next month and let you know if battery charge is still rapidly discharging

Thanks

Nathan

[gayeskin]

See attached recent ride file.

As a follow up, you were correct, I needed to configure the FTP.

Thanks again

Nathan

[gayeskin]

John, i fully charged the unit on Tuesday evening. Down to 72% Thursday evening after approximately 80 miles. I know when winter gets here, that charge won't last a week. Any suggestions?

[Velocomp]

We are all getting more experience. It's too soon to tell what is non-normal. Also, we have not yet done power consumption optimization in the firmware.

Please keep watching. If there is a problem we will cover it under warranty.

In the mean time, there is nothing wrong with charging-up your Newton!

[gayeskin]

Thanks John,
I'll use this as a post for Keeping track of Battery Performance.

Since my last post. I was out of town on the weekend and when i turned the unit on this morning, without any use from Friday to Sunday, it was down to 62%.

[chrisdixon]

I am having the same issue with battery depletion with my Newton+. My Newton+ does not hold anywhere near the 160 hours promised. I charged the unit to 100% one evening, turned the unit off, and checked the battery in the morning before a long ride - it was down to 93%. After only two rides 2-3 hours and 4-5 days, the unit was down to 37%.

I am concerned that my unit might be defective, especially since velocomp reports much better discharge rate.

What is causing this? And what can I do to correct?

[still-chasing]

Why is it that the "analyze route" after result is different from "show tilt" after result? shouldn't it be that the result of the show tilt and analyze route value the same?

Here is the file:

[Velocomp]

I am having the same issue with battery depletion with my Newton+. My Newton+ does not hold anywhere near the 160 hours promised. I charged the unit to 100% one evening, turned the unit off, and checked the battery in the morning before a long ride - it was down to 93%. After only two rides 2-3 hours and 4-5 days, the unit was down to 37%.

I am concerned that my unit might be defective, especially since velocomp reports much better discharge rate.

What is causing this? And what can I do to correct?

Folks, we're on release FW version 1.0 right now. We have done nothing to optimize battery usage; 160 hours was an engineering estimate.

I have had my Newton turned off for 4 days and it has drained from 100% to 72%. When the Newton is "off" it still uses some power...

There is nothing wrong with your Newton. Batteries have slightly different characteristics.

[mikebike]

Folks, we're on release FW version 1.0 right now. We have done nothing to optimize battery usage; 160 hours was an engineering estimate.

I have had my Newton turned off for 4 days and it has drained from 100% to 72%. When the Newton is "off" it still uses some power...

There is nothing wrong with your Newton. Batteries have slightly different characteristics.

I have had my Newton for 7 days. three days on for a total of 9 hours and off for 4 days. Charge at the start was 100%. Charge after the 7 days was 74%.
Seems pretty good to me. Look forward to the optimization.

[gayeskin]

John,
Fully charged last night. 46 miles and it was down to 87% when i get home this afternoon.

Thanks

Nathan

[gayeskin]

Looks like i'm getting apporixmately 10 hours per charge.

[Rolf1]

Looks like i'm getting apporixmately 10 hours per charge.

Hello,

I´m a little bit confused.
I have waited for the Newton because a main advantage is a higher battery life and now it seems that a Newton has even a shorter battery life that an iPro??!!

Ibikesport promises 160 hours.

Now I read:
1. 160 hours was an engineering estimate
Upps, does that mean that iBikesports promised 160 hours but they didn´t any realistic test? (When GM brings a new car on the market, I expect that they test it before and know exactly the maximum speed and don´t tell me “an engineering estimate”!)

2. We see a discharge rate of about 2.5% per hour.
A discharge rate of 2,5% per hour means a theoretical maximum of 40 hours continues use.

I suppose the battery is a lithium battery. If yes there should be always a rest capacity of 10 – 20% otherwise the life time decreases (> 32 – 36 hours….).

3. When the Newton is "off" it still uses some power...
I ride only 3 – 5 time per week so I suppose that 32 – 36 hours are not realistic, because in the meantime the Newton needs a little bit power too.

4. Fully charged battery lasted approximately 16 hours, no where near the 160 stated
and
I am having the same issue with battery depletion with my Newton+. My Newton+ does not hold anywhere near the 160 hours promised. I charged the unit to 100% one evening, turned the unit off, and checked the battery in the morning before a long ride - it was down to 93%. After only two rides 2-3 hours and 4-5 days, the unit was down to 37%.
It seems at the moment the battery live is only about 10% of the promised value.

5. Since I happen to download my rides daily, my battery level never drops below 90%
Fine, but I only want to know my power. I don´t have the time to download the file after every ride, so I need a unit which does not need to be charged every week.

I have the following questions:
1. Is there a realistic change to increase the battery life significantly by a power consumption optimization or to use a battery with a much higher capacity?
2. In the past some users used an additional external battery to increase the battery life. Is that possible with the Newton too? That would require that the USB-port can be used to connect an external battery.

Rolf

[Velocomp]

Looks like i'm getting apporixmately 10 hours per charge.

Hello,


Now I read:
1. 160 hours was an engineering estimate
Upps, does that mean that iBikesports promised 160 hours but they didn´t any realistic test? (When GM brings a new car on the market, I expect that they test it before and know exactly the maximum speed and don´t tell me “an engineering estimate”!)

2. We see a discharge rate of about 2.5% per hour.
A discharge rate of 2,5% per hour means a theoretical maximum of 40 hours continues use.

I suppose the battery is a lithium battery. If yes there should be always a rest capacity of 10 – 20% otherwise the life time decreases (> 32 – 36 hours….).

3. When the Newton is "off" it still uses some power...
I ride only 3 – 5 time per week so I suppose that 32 – 36 hours are not realistic, because in the meantime the Newton needs a little bit power too.

4. Fully charged battery lasted approximately 16 hours, no where near the 160 stated
and
I am having the same issue with battery depletion with my Newton+. My Newton+ does not hold anywhere near the 160 hours promised. I charged the unit to 100% one evening, turned the unit off, and checked the battery in the morning before a long ride - it was down to 93%. After only two rides 2-3 hours and 4-5 days, the unit was down to 37%.
It seems at the moment the battery live is only about 10% of the promised value.

5. Since I happen to download my rides daily, my battery level never drops below 90%
Fine, but I only want to know my power. I don´t have the time to download the file after every ride, so I need a unit which does not need to be charged every week.

I have the following questions:
1. Is there a realistic change to increase the battery life significantly by a power consumption optimization or to use a battery with a much higher capacity?
2. In the past some users used an additional external battery to increase the battery life. Is that possible with the Newton too? That would require that the USB-port can be used to connect an external battery.

Rolf

1. When we are as big as GM, we will do the same kind of testing as GM.

2. The battery shuts itself off when it discharges too much. This preserves the battery for longer life.

3. You don't have to download your rides to charge the Newton. Just plug it in to any USB charger.

4. External batteries are not an option with the Newton, unless you design your own mount and USB connection. We do not recommend this, and any damage to the Newton caused by custom mounts and connectors won't be covered under warranty.

Folks, we lived with 5 years of complaints about the CR2032 battery. Now, we've gotten rid of the CR2032 battery; we've made the battery rechargeable (it takes about 15 minutes to recharge from a 75% level); cold weather performance is excellent; there are no more expensive wireless mounts (with more CR2032 batteries); the Newton is smaller and weighs less than all prior models, in part because we decided not to put a huge battery in it.

We can, and will, do more to optimize battery life, but some aspects of the digital sensors surprised us when we went from "theory" to "practice". I don't see the Newton getting to the original 160 hour estimate; we are updating our website accordingly.

Please remember that if you're unhappy with your Newton, for whatever the reason, you have the option to return it within the 30 day trial-use period get a refund.

[lorduintah]

All Lithium batteries have what is called self-discharge. That means that they WILL lose capacity all the time - not just in use. One reason the battery loses charge on the shelf.

Also, there is not a likely way to completely shut down the chips - ICs, components) in the Newton - for one the internal clock runs and there are likely other low current components that may not be shut down when you go to the battery screen and hit the center button -which turns off the display and probably most of the electronics. Does your laptop not lose battery capacity even when shut off?

Many lessons have been learned about various lithium based batteries in the MEDICAL Device industry - where I am currently employed.

The specs for capacity are usually listed as MAHR - milli-amp hours - which is current times time. This is also based on a starting voltage and an ending voltage - users are expected to design their application to operate in that voltage range and not to exceed some current requirement - the battery can only deliver so much instantaneous power or the voltage will drop below the minimum to operate the circuits it is supposed to drive. (This last is very similar to the cranking power in your car battery - how much power is there to start a car - cold cranking...)

Incidentally - the chemistry used for rechargeable lithium batteries is not exactly the same for those that are never re-charged (like in a pacemaker.) And there are a number of variations. Each chemistry has advantages and disadvantage over others - and there are a wide variety of construction architectures for these lithium based batteries.

All batteries are temperature sensitive - the Nernst equation describes the voltage capability versus temperature that an electrochemical reaction can provide. Here, the advantage of the fairly narrow range that a human body operates at (37 Celsius give or take) makes the lithium battery a good choice for long term heart function needs. That is NOT to say that a Newton could do better with some other chemistry - and that could be said for a number of applications - but right now lithium is the battery of choice due to the scaling of size and the available voltage one can produce relative to the need of the electronic technologies currently in vogue. Li based batteries are currently the most cost effective.

After that background ----

An electronic circuit draws current - which in the case of things like a Newton or iPad or iPhone or the like - makes use of a lithium battery to drive those circuits. The active state of components is supposed to be the only time when there is a major draw on the battery for power. But there are variations from component to component and in this particular case - Newton to Newton. I would guess there are a few that may be drawing a lot more current than what would be considered nominal - whether the unit is on or off. But I would also guess that number is darn small. There are bound to be a few with some manufacturing defects that lead to this kind of behavior and time will tell if they will really require replacement.

The recording interval, the LCD brightness level - both of these can influence how long the battery will last - there may be ways to alter the internal operation of the Newton to further reduce the battery depletion - but that will take some time - and what follows should be considered about how a small group is not fully staffed to cover all the bases.

Velocomp - as John pointed out - does not have the resources of a GM, Ford, Sony, Apple or so many other large companies that have dedicated Quality and Reliability arms that contribute to robust designs (and I do not imply that the Newton is NOT robust here.) There is a difference between testing an appliance like a Newton (does it work, turn on, turn off, show the display, correctly analyze the key parameters for converting motion to power, etc.) and looking at the testing for a pacemaker - which actually has a number of SIMILAR input measurements that then lead to necessary responses for the patient to have a high quality of life. The pacemaker testing is far more rigorous, but the price tag is a lot higher, too. The consequences of a failed pacemaker are quite a bit more dramatic than a Newton that may not run for the 160 hours that it was first thought to be capable of making. In the case of implanted medical devices, there are a lot of counters imbedded in the firmware to shut down features and limit the use of features which in turn save battery capacity and still do not endanger the patient. A number of these were developed AFTER the first designs,

So, let's put all of this into a rational mindset that the Newton is new, there may very well be a few things that have yet to be worked out. It is still quite amazing that these few people have manage to provide some biking appliances that come in with price tags significantly less than the SRM class of power meters, that have the capabilities to collect heart rate and cadence and even send this data to a third party device (such as a Garmin) to record GPS data on top of the power, HR and cadence - and then take the SRM output and store that, too!

In the end, I have to yield to John and Co. - if you don;t like the Newton - use the 30 days to evaluate it and then get your money back. Otherwise, try to understand it may not be rocket science or at the same technology level as a pacemaker, but this little box is doing pretty darn good!

Tom

[talaskgg]

Ok, 2 more issues, one minor an done more major. The minor one is that the newton screen is invisible from normal angles when you wear polarized sunglasses. The major one is that the software doesn't recognize the iBike and I have been unable to download rides despite doing all the things (except another hard reset) in the suggestions.

[talaskgg]

One more thing...the little rubber cover over the usb port immediately ripped out

[Velocomp]

Ok, 2 more issues, one minor an done more major. The minor one is that the newton screen is invisible from normal angles when you wear polarized sunglasses. The major one is that the software doesn't recognize the iBike and I have been unable to download rides despite doing all the things (except another hard reset) in the suggestions.

Please email Tom Gore at tgore@velocomp.com for technical support regarding these problems.

[gayeskin]

We can, and will, do more to optimize battery life, but some aspects of the digital sensors surprised us when we went from "theory" to "practice". I don't see the Newton getting to the original 160 hour estimate; we are updating our website accordingly.

Please remember that if you're unhappy with your Newton, for whatever the reason, you have the option to return it within the 30 day trial-use period get a refund.

John,
To be clear, I think the Newton is a brilliant product and have no regrets on the purchase. I was just a little surprised when the unit completely discharged after 2 weeks and I just wanted to make sure I did not have a defective battery. Hopefully, the cold weather performance will be as stated.

Thanks again for your help

Nathan

[Russ]

Toms rather longish post on all things lithium as in batteries and pace makers was interesting, I to am electro teki Nice write up Tom! I am still quite relieved that I have escaped the cardiologist who threatened me with the pacemaker . In fact, recently I got the all clear from the second opinion cardiologist who 'studies the athlete's heart' at UVA. They even did the MRI and no problemo, RV slightly enlarged but that probably is a normal adaptation to lots of arobic riding.

Back to the iBike.... I am currently, on the assumption that 85% peak charge extends battery useful life, charging only to 85% and then unplugging, I make sure I do my data uploads quickly and if necessary unplug while processing a series of things. If I plan a very long ride or a couple of days away from the laptop, I may charge to 100% before I go.

Also as a data point, from 85% in roughly two days the unit discharged in the off mode to 77%.

As to the power down and firmware, only thing that comes to mind, from past experience, is to make sure that the correct power down modes or the like for minimum consumption are set. Specifically I am thinking of only wake on activation of the middle button. Sometimes it only takes on bit to miss the target performance I am just prodding to give an idea to check. If other circuits are powered up all the time, and I do not know, then your results will surely vary more with tolerance variations and defects even when powered 'off'.

Thanks and my unit is working quite well, very glad to have it!

Russ

[Zoltan]

"Folks, we lived with 5 years of complaints about the CR2032 battery. Now, we've gotten rid of the CR2032 battery; we've made the battery rechargeable (it takes about 15 minutes to recharge from a 75% level); cold weather performance is excellent; there are no more expensive wireless mounts (with more CR2032 batteries); the Newton is smaller and weighs less than all prior models, in part because we decided not to put a huge battery in it."

I think the proper keywords for a long time solution are "rechargable" and "replacable". I know that AA sized NiMh are not so tiny, nor are they perfect in cold environment, but you can have some replacement in your pockets or saddle bag. Moreover there are some with very low self discharge.

The point is that it is better to replace the batteries on the shoulder than to try to find a place with power points. Correction: sometimes drinking in a bar is preferred

CR2032 would be perfect if you hadn't got to throw them away after they have been depleted.

[lorduintah]

My apologies for my dissertation. But I truly find it very difficult that there are some posts on this forum that seem to not have much of a grasp of the technologies involved in this or any products that are innovative - and were introduced by newcomers - not the conglomerates.

Tom

[texmurphy]

I find my Newton+ discharges from 100% overnight to 96%, then a 4+ hour ride and I find 93%.
Several hours later, I hook to usb for upload and charge returns to 100% under 15 minutes.

Some Lion devices may need their battery monitoring software reset as a normal course. This generally is done by discharge and recharge. Perhaps Velocomp can comment on the best practice for their battery monitor.
IOW - some things you may be seeing for battery level are software artifact and resettable.