Garmin compatibility announcement

Site_Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:53 pm
Contact:

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by Site_Admin »

Why don't you just CALL US first? Geez.
Derath
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:53 pm

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by Derath »

To what end? Answer it here and it is answered for all. Call you first and the rest of us will still be sitting here wondering...
Larry
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:06 am

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by Larry »

cuz i live on the other side of the world
Brodirt
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:17 pm

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by Brodirt »

Ok, then...now that I am completely confused will someone answer yes, or no to the following:

1. If you have a wireless mount already you cannot simply use any Garmin sensors that you may have.
2. If you have a wireless mount already and want to use your Garmin sensors you must purchase the $99 firmware upgrade.
3. Will Velocomp buy back from me the 2 sensors that they already sold me and are now making me pay another $99 for the privilege of not using in place of something that I already paid $40 for from Garmin?
4. Is this a scam or what? I mean I was one who was out quick with the desire for Garmin sensor compatibility, and completely agree that Velocomp should be compensated for their efforts....but $99!? I dont get it.
User avatar
racerfern
Posts: 1356
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Baldwin, NY
Contact:

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by racerfern »

Q1. If you have a wireless mount already you cannot simply use any Garmin sensors that you may have.
A1: Correct
2. If you have a wireless mount already and want to use your Garmin sensors you must purchase the $99 firmware upgrade.
A2: Correct
3. Will Velocomp buy back from me the 2 sensors that they already sold me and are now making me pay another $99 for the privilege of not using in place of something that I already paid $40 for from Garmin?
A3: Not at this time.
4. Is this a scam or what? I mean I was one who was out quick with the desire for Garmin sensor compatibility, and completely agree that Velocomp should be compensated for their efforts....but $99!? I dont get it.
A4: IMO, it's not a scam. They have a ton of R&D time into getting this to work. However, this firmware upgrade also enables the iBike to transmit power info to the Garmin 705 series. So I look at it as $49.50 to get rid of two sensors and $49.50 to be able to talk to the iBike. I bought the upgrade.
Fernando
Brodirt
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:17 pm

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by Brodirt »

I dont have a 705 and never plan to own one...IMHO its an over-priced, over-sized, bloated product that offers nothing that 99% of cyclists would ever use. I tossed my 305 aside in place of the Ibike in fact (never having once used the GPS features. I liked the one unit HRM, cyclocomputer and altimeter solution it offerred), and as such have 3 extra sensor units...sensor units that are a better solution than that originally conceived of by Velocomp. I think the legnthy discussions had about sensor placement and this effort to intetgrate Garmin sensors pretty much prove that the 2 sensor idea was a failure.

Frankly, I dont see the $99 price as valued based. I see it as perception based. The consumer who is willing to drop $1500+ on on handlebar electronics isnt likely to sneeze at another $99! I find that insulting. That said the actual $99 isnt the issue...as I said I have completely abandoned an already pricey Garmin 305 unit w/2 extra sensors, and that wasnt the first pricey bike electronic thrown into my spare parts bin!

Velocomp....get a better solution. A fairer priced solution. One that doesnt have us who dont want 705 covergence to have to pay for it...a firmware update that just allows for sensor reception and not for broadcasting.

I aplogize for coming off cranky on this but I dont think Im alone on this one.
User avatar
racerfern
Posts: 1356
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Baldwin, NY
Contact:

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by racerfern »

So you don't use your 305 and you have no plans to buy a 705. Excellent. That means it doesn't matter if the firmware upgrade to the "G" version is free or not because you have no use for it. $99 saved for anything else. Priceless.
Fernando
Brodirt
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:17 pm

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by Brodirt »

But I do want to use my very vice Garmin sensor unit and dont think I should have to pay $99 for that option.
Velocomp
Velocomp CEO
Posts: 7793
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:43 am

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by Velocomp »

There is a significant cost involved in developing new firmware. All of our engineers and developers live in the USA; this allows us to go fast and to be very innovative, but this kind of talent is not cheap.

We based iBike G pricing on our actual development costs and a best-guess of the number of orders we will get. To get lower pricing someone on this thread might want to put together a group order of, say, 100 firmware upgrades. If we are presented with a firm order of this size we will provide substantially better pricing.
John Hamann
Derath
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:53 pm

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by Derath »

Brodirt,

No you are not alone. I too have been waiting anxiously to see what would happen with Garmin compatibility. While I know the Velocomp have busted their A$$ to make this happen, I too agree that the cost is a bit steep. I understand the need to recoup development costs, but I also believe there is an advantage to ibike to keep costs down. The power market is still very much a niche market. With the exception of the ibike, most other powermeters are priced too high for the non-racer to justify. The ibike has an excellent advantage here, except that in the last year it feels more like the users are getting nickel and dimed a good bit more.

Anyhow my main issue is this. Velocomp was on this ANT+Sport compatibility big time out of the gate. From the Fall press release: http://www.ibikesports.com/documents/4Q ... cement.pdf
The iBike HR mount utilizes innovative Dynastream ANTTM + Sport wireless technology, ensuring reliable and secure wireless data transmission. ANT +Sport also makes it possible for the iBike to communicate with the new Garmin Edge® 705, enabling cyclists to combine power, heart rate, speed, elevation, and cadence information along with GPS data in a single ride file.
Also in an interview at interbike, John seems to mkes it pretty clear this functionality would be a part of the wireless solution (1:14 into video) http://www.worldcycling.tv/interbike-2007-ibike

Then towards the end of the year people started asking about Garmin compatibility. Velocomp backpedaled, stating it turned out it wasn't going to be something supported out of the box, and at the time wasn't planned. From the old mailing list 12/10/2007
At this time we are not compatible with the Garmin speed/cadence sensors, and we haven't enabled power transmission capability to the 705.

It will take significant developer time and precious memory space on our microprocessor to implement Garmin compatibility. We're not yet convinced there is substantial user demand for Garmin compatibility, but we are very interested in your comments.

John
There was enough backlash that Velocomp must have decided this was something worth pursuing, and have now achieved, for $99.

My issue isn't simply the cost. But that they are charging that, at least to me, they gave what seemed to be a pretty clear impression that this would be an out of the box functionality with going wireless.

Now also to be fully open an honest I am NOT yet an ibike owner. I participate here because I am VERY interested. I almost bought one last summer, but then heard about the upcoming wireless mount. Being a heavy Garmin user it intrigued me. So I waited for it to get announced. Then with the backpedal in december I again waited (plus it was winter). Now that functionality is here, but at a cost that makes me think twice.

Now I will also say, I appreciate and value your openess John. It is refreshing to see someone at your leve of a company be as open and honest with your product. It is great to see how passionate you are about what you have created. I hope this sort of dialog doesn't hinder that openess going forward.

Dan
User avatar
racerfern
Posts: 1356
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Baldwin, NY
Contact:

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by racerfern »

Dan,

I read your post with interest and realized you are in the best position of anyone. You can own a wireless iBike setup for as little as $597 + shipping by searching a bit on the internet. $349 for a wired iBike Pro, $149 for a wireless mount and $99 for the "G" firmware. So, all things considered, that sounds like an awesome deal - actually quite a few dollars less than the people that like to be at the cutting edge paid. And you would only be about one year behind the curve; not bad. How much do you think the entry ticket should be? (If you need the details of how to get this price just send me a PM.)

By the way, I don't see how there could be backlash against a product whose principals said "At this time we are not compatible with the Garmin speed/cadence sensors, and we haven't enabled power transmission capability to the 705. It will take significant developer time and precious memory space on our microprocessor to implement Garmin compatibility. We're not yet convinced there is substantial user demand for Garmin compatibility, but we are very interested in your comments"

I don't see any promises that weren't kept or price points that were violated. They saw the interest, developed the product and rolled it out. They might make a millions dollars, they might not. Their cojones are bigger than mine and for that I congratulate them.
Fernando
Derath
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:53 pm

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by Derath »

racerfern wrote:I read your post with interest and realized you are in the best position of anyone. You can own a wireless iBike setup for as little as $597 + shipping by searching a bit on the internet. $349 for a wired iBike Pro, $149 for a wireless mount and $99 for the "G" firmware. So, all things considered, that sounds like an awesome deal - actually quite a few dollars less than the people that like to be at the cutting edge paid. And you would only be about one year behind the curve; not bad. How much do you think the entry ticket should be? (If you need the details of how to get this price just send me a PM.)
Not arguing with that. In fact it is even better for me since I have garmin sensors on 3 bikes. But that is not really the point of my post.
racerfern wrote:By the way, I don't see how there could be backlash against a product whose principals said "At this time we are not compatible with the Garmin speed/cadence sensors, and we haven't enabled power transmission capability to the 705. It will take significant developer time and precious memory space on our microprocessor to implement Garmin compatibility. We're not yet convinced there is substantial user demand for Garmin compatibility, but we are very interested in your comments"
Maybe backlash isn't the right word, but umm there was. I am not talking about something that might happen in the future, this happened. I have the bulk of the conversations in my gmail from the old forums.
racerfern wrote:I don't see any promises that weren't kept or price points that were violated. They saw the interest, developed the product and rolled it out. They might make a millions dollars, they might not. Their cojones are bigger than mine and for that I congratulate them.
Then you either missed half of my post, or ignored it. They announced and touted Garmin compatibility several times as I pointed out above. When the time came people started asking "where is this garmin compatibility you talked about". They then answered, as I posted above, that they were wrong and it wasn't there and may not be depending on interest.

Did you even watch the interbike interview? John doesn't say "we have the potential ability to talk to the new Garmin." He doesn't say "we will be developing a $100 firmware upgrade to talk to Garmin" he says "we actually talk to the new garmin edge 705"

So yea I take that as a failure to deliver.

Now keep in mind I am not even really making this issue for my benefit. As you pointed out I am in the best position overall. But I certainly feel bad for the people who bought the wireless mount under the guise that it would be cross compatible with Garmin, only to find out a month later that not only was this not true, but it would cost a significant amount of money to get that compatibility. (yes I consider $100 significant).

For me it give me concern because for a small company, trying to break into a tough market, things like this have a greater chance of alienating current and potential users. I HOPE ibike makes Millions. I wish them great success. Because the ibike is probably the only powermeter out there that can truly take advantage of economies of scale, due to the nature of its design.

Dan
User avatar
racerfern
Posts: 1356
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Baldwin, NY
Contact:

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by racerfern »

Dan,

I understand you. I guess I take announcements such as these with a grain of salt. I've lived through years of announcments with everything from Microsoft Windows to iBike and the gamut inbetween. In my eyes, announcements like these usually take on the air of a press release to attract attention and pique interest; so I listen and watch but I don't expect any of them to follow through to the letter. The same went for Garmin with the announcement of the 305, the 705, the footpod accessory, the upcoming 405, etc.

I don't keep track of all the releases but I do remember at some point that Velocomp did say it would be an upgrade that would be charged for, though I think that was for integration with the 705.

Anyway, I understand that there is a group of people that bought the wireless with sensors and will have a couple of sensors that are no longer needed if they opt for the "G" upgrade. I'm not sure that there is a solution that works for them and for Velocomp.
Fernando
Brodirt
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:17 pm

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by Brodirt »

Ok so I gave in and purchased the new firmware...I wanted the one sensor solution for my new bike.

Now I have technical problems. I cannot get the sensor(s) to pair. The download went fine and the new firmware is recognized and working in the head unit. I tried every iteration of sensor, new batteries in all units, a second Garmin sensor, and even went back to Ibike sensors and I cannot get a pairing. Worse, when I mounted the unit back on a wired mount it wouldnt read cadence.

Help please!
User avatar
racerfern
Posts: 1356
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Baldwin, NY
Contact:

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by racerfern »

Flip the battery in the Garmin sensor, then flip it back to reset the sensor.

On your Garmin, go to Accessories, Cadence sensor and restart scan.

On the iBike, did you go into setup WLS CFG? There is a new item for SPCd. This needs to be set to ON. Then SPD - FIND, CAD - FIND, HRT - NONE, POut - OFF. Then exit the last screen. Make sure the sensor is awake by passing a magnet. I spun the rear wheel and kept it spinning with both units mounted on the bike to make sure the Garmin found it also.

Both the iBike and the Garmin need to "find" the sensor. Finally, assuming that works, you need to go back into setup and do the same for HRT only. Do it on the Edge also.
Fernando
Brodirt
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:17 pm

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by Brodirt »

Thanks for the offer of help....did all of what you mentioned and much more. Eventually wound up on the phone with John last night and we worked out that it was a bad wireless mount.

Thanks John.
Site_Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:53 pm
Contact:

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by Site_Admin »

All this ANT + Sport compatibility is a good thing.

If you have that speed/cadence thing from Garmin already, then we can read that, and you won't need our sensors. You will still need our wireless mount. One way or the other, the data has to come in to the iBike, get processed, and then go out to the 305 or 705.

We don't usually do unique orders, but things can always be arranged. It's just difficult - seriously.
chrismiars
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 3:45 pm

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by chrismiars »

Just want to add my name to the list that feels the $99 price for the G firmware is too high (as I only need the half of the upgrade that allows ibike to read Garmin sensor/HR strap).

I have been holding off on purchasing the wireless mount as I do not want to pay $269 to have HR & power on same device (currently use polar hrm). I am about to purchase a Garmin Forerunner 305 (REI sale $165) and was looking at purchasing the Garmin cadence/speed kit for the bike ($50)and the ibike wireless- no sensor mount ($149)and have everything integrated (for multisport) for a total price of $364. But an additional $99 to let the Garmin sensors talk to the ibike- deal breaker.

I will continue to watch for price adjustments/sales. Maybe you would sell more G firmware at a lower price point and still recoup R&D?

Chris
AndrewK
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:22 pm

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by AndrewK »

Hi All

Have my 705, have my iBike with the new firmware.

Everything paired and the 705 reads out the Power (intermittently goes to 0 for some reason but works most of the time).

Now - I have uploaded a ride to Sportstracks and Training Centre - NO power readings? Why?? The Garmin has average power etc but for some reason the info has not come across. Anyone help with this???

Finally, some other questions:

1. Why does the 705 read the iBike with a 10-20W difference? Is that due to the offset? If yes, what does that mean??
2. Why does the Garmin read 0 intermittently but fairly frequently and then read normally. Is there an issue with the ANT+ data being transmitted???

Thanks

Andrew
User avatar
racerfern
Posts: 1356
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Baldwin, NY
Contact:

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by racerfern »

Andrew,

I have my 705 and iBike paired also. In the 705 ANT+ screen there is an additional screen for offset, you have to pedal and press the button. I did it, but I'm not sure what it accomplishes.

I don't think my power readings on the 705 drop to 0. I only use it to collect the data. I use my iBike to see the numbers.

Here are a couple of things for sure:
1) The 705 lags behind the iBike by a few seconds in displaying wattage numbers. I haven't figured out if it lags behind displaying and recording or just displaying.
2) It the wattage number is zero (coasting) the 705 does not record a zero. It records nothing at that trackpoint.
3) Because of #2 the average watts displayed by the 705 is incorrect. It's the same as cadence. The iBike cadence average includes zero cadence, the 705 cadence average does not include zero cadence.
4) Neither Garmin Training Center nor SportTracks currently bring the wattage info in. I sent one of my tcx files to the devoloper of SportTracks so wattage import will be included in the next version.
5) For SportTracks you can currently use the Training Planner and Power Info and Power Importer plugins to import the iBike csv file. That will bring in the data and mix nice graphs of power with other stuff.

I hope this helps. I'm sure this will all get worked out as we discover things here and there.
Fernando
AndrewK
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:22 pm

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by AndrewK »

Hi Fernando

I think the 0 watts reading on the 705 is an issue that iBike knows about. Something to do with the wireless.

Currently I mport the rides into SportsTracks - if I use the plugin, will it create another ride or just add the data to the ride imported?

Finally, how do you import 705 data into SportsTracks - import via file or is there another way? Currently I import by file and navigate to the history folder of the Garmin 705. Problematic as sometimes hard to find which ride as for some reason even if I clear histroy, files are left on the Garmin!

Thanks

Andrew
AndrewK
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:22 pm

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by AndrewK »

Hi Fernando

"5) For SportTracks you can currently use the Training Planner and Power Info and Power Importer plugins to import the iBike csv file. That will bring in the data and mix nice graphs of power with other stuff."

I downloaded and installed. I upgraded to the latest framework (3.5 as per website). When I tried to import the csv file I can't find out how!!! The normal import does NOT include csv files.

Can you advise?

Thanks

Andrew
User avatar
racerfern
Posts: 1356
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Baldwin, NY
Contact:

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by racerfern »

Andrew,

I'm away for the weekend and now recovering from yesterday's killer century. 80% of the ride was over 100 degrees. In a few hours when I get home, I'll give you the answers you're looking for.
Fernando
User avatar
racerfern
Posts: 1356
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Baldwin, NY
Contact:

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by racerfern »

AndrewK wrote:I downloaded and installed. I upgraded to the latest framework (3.5 as per website). When I tried to import the csv file I can't find out how!!! The normal import does NOT include csv files.
Andrew
Andrew,

In addition to the plugins you have, also download the following iBike fixer. It will "spread" the iBike data to match the Garmin data which has pauses everytime you stop. http://www.zonefivesoftware.com/SportTr ... .php?id=69

Then in ST, click on Select View > Daily Activity so the activity you are working with is selected.
Then click on Edit Activity > Merge Power Data. Navigate to the file folder that has your .csv file and click Open. That's it.

Now click on the down arrow next to Summary. Select "Power Info". You should have your power info displayed.

This is where it can get a little tricky depending on the recording rate. If you click the down arrow to the right of Power/Time, select Pie Chart Demo. You should see the various ranges in a pie chart. Now go back to Power/Time. Select add more charts and add elevation for example. Double click anywhere in the chart and you should see a disparity (it maight be small or large) of where the data ends. Are you with me up to here?
Fernando
AndrewK
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:22 pm

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by AndrewK »

Hi Fernando

Away till tomorrow. Will do tomorrow.

Thanks for all your help!!!

All best wishes,

Andrew
AndrewK
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:22 pm

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by AndrewK »

Hi Fernado

Installed remotely.

Followed instructions.

When I opened the csv file, I got the following error:

Error importing c:\My Documents\etc etc

Invalid Converion: km
Parameter name: Value

Hmmmm!!!

Thanks

Andrew
User avatar
racerfern
Posts: 1356
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Baldwin, NY
Contact:

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by racerfern »

Now that's a new one. Try this: iBike csv files are different than Excel csv files. I'm not sure why but they are. If you happened to look at the csv file with Excel and saved it, the ST importer will not read it. Open the csv file with iB2, save it, then quit iB2. Now try opening again with ST importer.

You can also email me the file at cycling at fernandomaldonado.com and I can have a look at it.
Fernando
AndrewK
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:22 pm

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by AndrewK »

Hi Fernado

I save directly into iBike and never open in excel. I will send you a file.

All best wishes,

Andrew
User avatar
racerfern
Posts: 1356
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Baldwin, NY
Contact:

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by racerfern »

Andrew,

I received your file and got the same error as you. Then I opened your file in iB2, and saved it as a new file but using English not metric. The new file opened perfectly in SportTracks. Do you ST in metric or in English units? Somewhere in there lies the problem. It may be with the importer or with using different measuring systems. I'll drill further. In the meantime, save your csv file using English units and see if it imports.

Regards.
Fernando
marshr
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:40 am
Location: Poland, Maine

Re: Garmin compatibility announcement

Post by marshr »

I received my iaero iii yesterday and prior iaero had trainer and garmin firmware upgrades. The new firmware on gen iii has the trainer but i do not see in wireless setup the SPCd choice, i only see the none garmin choices on iaero. i assume i would not upload the gen ii garmin firmware. Am i missing an install or did i not set it up correctly. The unit will not work since all my sensors are garmin. i wrote john to see if i just have wrong firmware and wait his response but just wanted to ask other gen iii garmin users. thanks
Rick
Post Reply