Race with a disc

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andrep
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Race with a disc

Post by andrep » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:10 am

Dear Fernando ;-) and all other iBike user,

yesterday I had a 70.3 Triathlon and it was very very windy!!! I haven´t downloaded the race-data yet, but I realised in the competition something I like to discuss:
Before the race I decided to go with round about 210 to 220 watts. I did so in the headwind-sections and pacing was quite perfect. But on the "back-sidewind" sections when the disc worked like a sail, I raced with the same "power-output" (what I felt and my heartrate told me) but the watts went up to 240 or more (what is similar to my FTP but felt much much easier). Will say - the iBike (of course?) didn´t know, that the disc was pushing me forward. Any suggestions how to handle this fact? Did someone realise something similar too?

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racerfern
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Re: Race with a disc

Post by racerfern » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:37 pm

For me and I believe for most people it's easier to maintain a given effort in a tailwind.

I'm looking forward to seeing the ride file.
Fernando

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andrep
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Re: Race with a disc

Post by andrep » Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:34 am

To be honest - in this file you can´t see it very well, that my watts went up in the tailwind sections ... strange - during the right it looked different :oops:

Please explain what you mean if you say "its easier to maintain a given effort"?

And here is the ride file
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texmurphy
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Re: Race with a disc

Post by texmurphy » Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:25 pm

andrep wrote:To be honest - in this file you can´t see it very well, that my watts went up in the tailwind sections ... strange - during the right it looked different...
racerfern and I have had issues with the Newton showing different values than post-ride Isaac shows. See http://www.ibikeforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=2799

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Re: Race with a disc

Post by racerfern » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:31 pm

@andrep

For me (and I think most riders) maintaining 225w in a tailwind is easier than maintaining 225w in a headwind. When dealing with a headwind you tend to feel every little change of a gust and you constantly chase your numbers. When in a tailwind you don't feel the slight wind changes nearly as much and at least for me I'm a lot smoother.

In a headwind you'll tend to find your wattage dropping and you mash to get back up. Your NP goes up, your VI goes up and you end up burning yourself up. I am over emphasizing, almost exaggerating but you should get the point.

Now, as far as your ride file, I have to say you pretty much nailed it. VI at 1.01 is excellent. I've never seen a TT ride of this length and I'm not sure if .94IF is within the realm of possibility for an almost 2.5hr TT.

Right around 65km (01:55:00) you started to fade a bit, HR dropped, power started settling down. Prior to this point avg power was 220w and after this point avg power was 213. Also your cadence started dropping as you tired.

For a good look at the big picture change the smoothing to ten minutes and you'll see how consistent and effort you did. You can look at the ride using any smoothing number you want and it can be an eye opener. Quite impressive I must say.

Congratulations!
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andrep
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Re: Race with a disc

Post by andrep » Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:45 am

Many thanks Fernando - for the congrats, your comments and your explanations. This is very helpfull.

To be honest: Yes, I start loving my Newton. In the winter and spring when I did a lot of GA1 rides it was a "nice to have" tool. But now, when I started with 2x20 and other exercises and of course the first race, I realise what big help it is and how good the newton is working. And yes - good pacing was one of the reasons why I bought it and now I see: Yes - it is working. ;-)

I think the IF of nearly 0.95 is (maybe) to high for two reasons: 1. I haven´t done a fit test and estimated my FTP (I set it on 238 but maybe it is 245 to 250 - have to check it) and 2. I rided to fast. I realised in the first 20km of the that I am a bit to fast but had the feeling that I can keep the pace. In the end I realise that there is a 20k run awaiting me and felt my muscles and became unsure if can do it well. So I dropped the pace and wattage a bit as you realised (thx - haven´t used the smoothing function till now!). And maybe I was 10watts to high for a solid run. the first 2 km of the run were good, than I felt horrible till km 14 and than I start that what I call running (instead of creeping ... ). So next time I have to do a fit test 2 or 3 weeks before the race and do than exactly 85% of my FTP. In 2 weeks there will be a short distance triathlon with a 40k ride. After that I should know my ftp because it means 1 hour hammering out everything! ;-)

Your explanation of the differences between front- and tailwind sounds very logical and think you are right. I will keep this in mind next time ...

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Re: Race with a disc

Post by andrep » Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:45 am

Dear Fernando,

last time you analysed my ride file perfectly and gave me very helpful comments. Therefore I like to ask you again to have a view on my ride file from today - an olympic triathlon.

First of all: It was a 8km round course with one 180 degree turn and a few corners at the other end of the course (but with transition zones on different locations, 5km from each other) and it was very windy. If I look at the ridefily I have the feeling, that the newton is showing more tailwind than front wind and asked myself why. It should be equal from my point of view. Beside this I wanted to use the file to set my ftp. But because of the sharp turn and the fact, that it took me some time to get my shoes on, and the run which was awaiting me why I slowed down a bit at the end and some LITTLE drafting (some big groups where around me) it is not as high as I expected (wished for ;-)). The middle-distance two weeks ago (82km) gave you a first view on my abilities (and you mention, that maybe the ftp wasn´t set correct so I thought it must be around 250). But could you give me a suggestion of what my ftp could be?! In my eyes it is maybe around 245. Any thoughts?

Many thanks in advance

André
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Re: Race with a disc

Post by racerfern » Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:49 pm

Again, a very nice steady effort. You did fade off at the 00:52 mark but still held nice power. I would say that setting your FTP at 250 would be appropriate. It's impossible to know why the wind was slightly less than a zero average, wind is just so extremely unstable, inconsistent and always varying. You can also get what's called a "sail effect" from some crosswinds that make things even harder to figure out. I think the proof is in the pudding so to speak. You've got a very consistent effort that was substantially higher than your 81km effort and as you can see your avg HR during this ride was higher. IIWY I would be very satisfied with your results.

You would have to do a cal ride followed by a out/back in near perfect conditions to see if there would be any change and I don't know that it's worth it. IF you took the time and the wind scaling went up slightly all it means is your FTP is slightly higher. My point here is that some people spend more time worrying about their profiles and they start chasing cal rides trying to figure out their FTP and hence abilities. It's far more important to set a benchmark, which you have, then set out to improve yourself.

I'm looking forward to seeing your next effort. Above all have fun!
Fernando

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andrep
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Re: Race with a disc

Post by andrep » Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:50 am

Many thanks again. And I follow your suggestion - I will leave the profile as it is and won´t do a new cal ride. I realise that I always asking myself, if the ibike is really working proper and I dialed it in in the right way - therefore it is good to hear your words (again and again ;-)): LEAVE the unit as it is. Otherwise I can´t compare what it is telling ... I am not sure, if putting my triathlon-drink-System between my handlebars could influence the remote wind sensor and lead on this way to inconsistent wind (but I had an eye on it, that I don´t change it to much or squize the tube - so if so, there is only a very small change. But I don´t know how big the influnce on the ibike sensors is - how sensible they are ... ?). Next sunday I have another olympic distance - again with 180-turns and some corners, but maybe with new discoveries and less wind. Will see. I will set my ftp now on 250. And yes - I am happy with my results. Bike and run were really ok - only the swimming wasn´t that good - so I need a powermeter for swimtraining as well ;-) THANK YOU!

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Re: Race with a disc

Post by andrep » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:25 pm

Dear Fernando,

the latest ridefifle - fresh from a very small triathlon with 1500 swim, 37 bike and 10k run. If I was complaining about wind last week, I have to complaine about this hard and very gusty wind today. It was the first time that I had difficulties to hold my trispoke + disc on the road. But there were only a few very bad sections - most parts were good to ride and many times I had the feeling that the disc was pushing me forward. There is definitly more drafting detected than I did. There weren´t so much riders so it was easy to find the own rhythm and ride alone. Again - much more tailwind that headwind measured by ibIke (on a round course??).But I don´t aks this questions again ;-) Finally - it was a very controlled ride. I tried to keep some more energie for the run and because I felt very tired this week I had doubts, if I can do a solid run after the ride. Finally - I won my agegroup ;-) (But only because there were only 6 in AG 40-45 ;-)) Any thoughts?
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Re: Race with a disc

Post by racerfern » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:06 pm

Nice effort! You probably have to raise your FTP slightly as you have an IF of 1.02 for this one hour effort.
Fernando

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andrep
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Re: Race with a disc

Post by andrep » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:32 am

Yes - I forgot to raise the FTP (last week you suggested to raise it on 250). And this ride felt more less under my FTP than last week - and there were some corners on very wet and slippy streets - so I slowed down very often during the ride. The reason why the VI is a bit higher (but still lower as I expected). Did you see my private message?

Thank You!

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Re: Race with a disc

Post by andrep » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:25 am

Dear Fernando (and other interested people),

many thanks for your answer in the other thread - I had no chance to answer and say "thank you" during my journey to "Challenge Roth" - which is the best long-distance-Triathon in the world.

I did the 180k bike part there in a relay. After 5 years on the long distance I needed a break and did "only" the bike part there. I knew before the race that I am not prepared as the last years and especially the long rides were missing. But - I was a bit disapointed by the time and the Power. My best race there was 3 years ago. I did a 5:38 hour ride followed by a very solid run (for me ;-)). This year I gave everything to stay under 6 hours (ok - with 6 Kilos more on my hips!). But - beside this, I did this race to get helpfull informations about the course for the next year, when I like to start again as a single-racer. First of all: My TSS was 375! I read a lot about 280 to 300 is a good TSS to have the abilty to run a solid marathon. So - I don´t know - I think 28km/h would have been the pace for a solid marathon. But the most important question is how to handle a "hilly" course like this. You´ve seen my middle-distance power-readings which I made on a flat course - average power and Neutralized Power were very close to each other (round about 220 watts). Now - on this course NP is much higher than the very low 162 average watts. So which number should be in focuse - NP or average watts?! (Because - I calculatet that it should be possible for me to go with 190 watts (what is my NP) - but it goes up and down all the time. Difficult. I think you get my problem and because I know how smart you are, I would like to listen to your thoughts. Every one else is invited to give some comments ;-)

André
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TriBike
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Re: Race with a disc

Post by TriBike » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:11 am

Riding Steady for triathletes has been viewed from many angles. Hunter Allen and Crew at Training peaks have come up with some terms and figures that prove quite helpful. Let me see if I can be somewhat brief about it, and I apologize if I miss anything... It is a forum, so please all feel free to add. The Term used for this is Variability Index (VI).

VI- Variability index is normalized power divided by average power.

Average Power: the power you held taking into account all the coasting, easy pedaling etc.

Normalized Power: a construct created by Hunter Allen and Andy Coggan, normalized power attempts to account for the fact that all watts are not created equal. The metabolic cost of watts gets much, much higher as watts increase and normalized watts tries to account for this. In short, normalized watts is how tired you felt after producing your average watts above.

More on VI: The goal to riding as even as possible, is to try to keep your VI under 12%. I personally like to see my VI even closer to 5%. Riding even, means applying force to the pedals at a constant effort and not standing up or stomping on the pedals and seeing the watts spike up to 500-1000 watt efforts. By riding even for a race or training ride you are METERING out your energy evenly vs. hammering for 1 minute then coasting or lightly pedaling for the next. If you were to race in a criterium, you would see a huge power difference between AP and NP, with all the sprints and hard efforts, which is normal for this style of riding/racing, however, there is no run after a Crit Race...

You can torch you legs a few times in a race (this means riding 25%+ over threshold for 45-60seconds or more) but it will affect your run, and not in a good way. Steady application of pressure on your pedals will result in the best performance off the bike. If you want to push BIG TIME watts go ahead, but be ready, you will be the first to know when the Run settles in.

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Re: Race with a disc

Post by andrep » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:44 am

Thx tribike -

I know very well what NP and average power is (I have the book of cogan too ;-)) - and on a flat course (look the attached file) it is "easy" to keep the watts. But on the course of the Challenge roth I don´t know, how to do it - because there are so many "little" hills and so many long downhill/coasting sections. So I need advices especially for this course - if possible ;-)
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Re: Race with a disc

Post by racerfern » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:33 am

Looking at the 179km ride I don't see where you could have done much better although your form deteriorated quite a bit toward the end (as would anyone's after a ride this long). You obviously cannot plan to maintain high IF not even 90% of it since you're out there for almost six hours. At an intensity of almost .8 I think you're at the brink of what you should be doing and still be able to function afterwards. My only comment is all that pedaling, not pedaling, pedaling... takes its toll when you start cranking again. The one "real hill" at 40 and 125 km for example. The first time through you rode almost 20 minutes steady pedaling, 201w. The second time through your cadence was erratic, you had more "surges" and you did about 186w.

Regardless, this is quite an accomplishment that you should be proud of on one very tough course.
Fernando

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andrep
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Re: Race with a disc

Post by andrep » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:13 am

Dear Fernando,

many thanks for your analysis and your feedback. Yes - you are right - 0.8 as IF isn´t that bad for 180k. So my learnings for the next year:

1. I have to lose weight (lower watts on Inclines) ;-)
2. I have to increase my FTP (from 240 to 270 or 280 would be fine), The goal is to do the course between 5:40 and 5:50 with the ability do put out a solid run)
3. I will ride 2014 with IF of 0.70 to 0.72 to have enough power for a solid run.
4. I will try to smooth my output as TriBike said (but still will need the decents to rest the legs. so Non-Pedaling parts are still important on this course)

Many thanks guys!

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Re: Race with a disc

Post by racerfern » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:09 am

. I will ride 2014 with IF of 0.70 to 0.72 to have enough power for a solid run
Hmm, you might want to research this as I think this is too low however I'm also not a triathlon expert. In fact I'm no expert at all :o

I think you should be in the .8 range and if you control those little short bursts this will give you a quite high average. Perhaps tribike can pipe in.
Fernando

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Re: Race with a disc

Post by TriBike » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:17 pm

Here is a quick photo of a chart that I use as a reference:
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Re: Race with a disc

Post by racerfern » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:46 pm

That settles that! See I said I was no expert. :oops:
Fernando

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Re: Race with a disc

Post by andrep » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:17 pm

... but you give always very good advices! ;-) And to discuss this item from different point of views can´t be wrong.

@Tribike: Yes, haven´t found this Chart anymore. THIS is helpfull! Beside this I created a "TSS Calculator" in Excel. If you are interested in it, I can send it in an email. For example for a long distance you can calculate which power and IF you can go for what time to reach 280 or 300 TSS Points. (which is the amount Cogan is advicing.)
But first of all - I have to lose weight ;-) ... I am hungry now ... :-(

Thx mates!

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