Anyone using PowerPod on a Fat Bike with any success?

Kellyk
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Re: Anyone using PowerPod on a Fat Bike with any success?

Post by Kellyk »

Any updates on this? Ive been trying to get mine to be reasonable and am unsure of what changes to make. I've put in the correct wheel diameter as there is no selection that is accurate. Crr should be close to .022? If input at .0022 then my power is nowhere close to what it should be (unless my road bike, heart and Neo trainer are all wrong).
Velocomp
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Re: Anyone using PowerPod on a Fat Bike with any success?

Post by Velocomp »

Please post a .ibr ride file and I will check it and fix it.
John Hamann
Kellyk
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Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:00 pm

Re: Anyone using PowerPod on a Fat Bike with any success?

Post by Kellyk »

Here is the calibration (I think) and a ride. I had made some changes on things for the ride.
Attachments
iBike_03_10_2018_0854_52_km copy.ibr
(935.96 KiB) Downloaded 234 times
iBike_02_19_2018_1206_2_Miles_CalRide.ibr
calibration
(42.7 KiB) Downloaded 226 times
Velocomp
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Re: Anyone using PowerPod on a Fat Bike with any success?

Post by Velocomp »

This shows a very low temperature: 16F!

I think your temperature setting is wrong; please email technicalsupport@velocomp.com for next steps
John Hamann
Kellyk
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Re: Anyone using PowerPod on a Fat Bike with any success?

Post by Kellyk »

Good one! And that was warm. And correct.
Ratman
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Re: Anyone using PowerPod on a Fat Bike with any success?

Post by Ratman »

hoosier1981 wrote:Hi all - I was going to take the fat bike out this weekend and give the PP a shot. I currently use PowerPod on my road / cx bikes. However - this just leaves my fat bike to set up (I've never tried it yet). I got a new Bluto fork with lockout, so calibration should be easy.
I realize CRR value doesn't make a huge difference between road tires, but as the fat tires can vary wildly, has anyone come to a close number on the Surly Bud / Lou 4.8 tires? I'll be running them at 5 lbs and would (guestimate) the crr to be close to .020 in light snow and dirt as they're the most beastly tires I've seen. I'll do some tinkering but thought I'd check in case anybody has already come up with a good number.
hoosier1981 -- I also have Bud/Lou 4.8 tires installed on my winter fatbike and have been using CRR=0.0211. I'm still evaluating the use of this value now that the bug in the Newton firmware for my unit was fixed, years after I pointed out the bug, and months after the promised delivery of the fix. I would say at this point that 0.0211 "appears" to be in the ballpark, at least for me. Good luck!
Velocomp
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Re: Anyone using PowerPod on a Fat Bike with any success?

Post by Velocomp »

Ratman wrote:
hoosier1981 wrote:Hi all - I was going to take the fat bike out this weekend and give the PP a shot. I currently use PowerPod on my road / cx bikes. However - this just leaves my fat bike to set up (I've never tried it yet). I got a new Bluto fork with lockout, so calibration should be easy.
I realize CRR value doesn't make a huge difference between road tires, but as the fat tires can vary wildly, has anyone come to a close number on the Surly Bud / Lou 4.8 tires? I'll be running them at 5 lbs and would (guestimate) the crr to be close to .020 in light snow and dirt as they're the most beastly tires I've seen. I'll do some tinkering but thought I'd check in case anybody has already come up with a good number.
hoosier1981 -- I also have Bud/Lou 4.8 tires installed on my winter fatbike and have been using CRR=0.0211. I'm still evaluating the use of this value now that the bug in the Newton firmware for my unit was fixed, years after I pointed out the bug, and months after the promised delivery of the fix. I would say at this point that 0.0211 "appears" to be in the ballpark, at least for me. Good luck!
It's not that we did not want to fix it, it is that the bug was very difficult to find! Better late than never...
John Hamann
hoosier1981
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Re: Anyone using PowerPod on a Fat Bike with any success?

Post by hoosier1981 »

Ratman wrote: hoosier1981 -- I also have Bud/Lou 4.8 tires installed on my winter fatbike and have been using CRR=0.0211. I'm still evaluating the use of this value now that the bug in the Newton firmware for my unit was fixed, years after I pointed out the bug, and months after the promised delivery of the fix. I would say at this point that 0.0211 "appears" to be in the ballpark, at least for me. Good luck!
I went on my fatbike for the first time a couple weeks ago with Bud/Lou 4.8 at 5psi. During the initial setup the closest wheelsize I could pick was 29er. With 5psi it defaulted to crr of .0173
I went ahead and did the cal ride (which was cold, windy, and I had no straight flat lines to test. I'll have to re-do the cal ride under better circumstances once this crazy weather ends...there is a straight-lined Greenway 20 minutes away that I'll try). Anyway, after the cal ride, I set the power smoothing to 5 seconds on the PowerPod since I have a front suspension fork that doesn't 'FULLY' lock out for the first 8 minutes, and turned off smoothing on the Garmin. I went on some singletrack mountain bike trails and the numbers seemed pretty good. There was a 16000W spike in the first few minutes while my bike was sitting in the parking lot, but it was just one second and Strava seemed to have cleaned it up. Aside from that, climbing seemed okay and the rough rocky sections didn't cause any issues. I might try with the .0211 as well. Do you mind my asking where you got the number from? Bicyclerollingresistance.com shows a lot of fat tires, but not at that low of pressure (which surprises me as this is where a lot of fat bikers run them). I wonder if 5 inches of snow would tack on quite a bit more.
All in all, for the one ride I did it seems to work pretty well, altho the fatbike is the one bike I cannot attach a friends DFPM for comparison, as nobody makes them for fat bikes.

When I go to re-calibrate since I know I did a shady job last time, when I configure the profile on my PC, can I manually set the wheel size in mm, BEFORE doing the detailed cal ride? Or will this then disable the cal ride mode if I modify and re-send the profile to PP?
Also, when I modify the CRR, I'm confused on how it then changes the other numbers. Is there a certain way I should go about this and let it re-do a certain one of the two other numbers? drag, etc... and should that be done before / after the initial cal ride?

The reason I ask about modifying these fields before-hand is, I'm not sure how the software goes about setting other numbers in relation during the cal ride. Unless the cal ride *ONLY* sets the tilt.
Also, do you find that it's best to ride around a parking lot for the beginning of the ride, or is the 'auto' tilt correction not automatic to the first 8 minutes (but rather only if something seems off)? Or does it kick in for both scenarios?
Ratman
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Re: Anyone using PowerPod on a Fat Bike with any success?

Post by Ratman »

hoosier1981 wrote:
Ratman wrote: hoosier1981 -- I also have Bud/Lou 4.8 tires installed on my winter fatbike and have been using CRR=0.0211. I'm still evaluating the use of this value now that the bug in the Newton firmware for my unit was fixed, years after I pointed out the bug, and months after the promised delivery of the fix. I would say at this point that 0.0211 "appears" to be in the ballpark, at least for me. Good luck!
I went on my fatbike for the first time a couple weeks ago with Bud/Lou 4.8 at 5psi. During the initial setup the closest wheelsize I could pick was 29er. With 5psi it defaulted to crr of .0173
I went ahead and did the cal ride (which was cold, windy, and I had no straight flat lines to test. I'll have to re-do the cal ride under better circumstances once this crazy weather ends...there is a straight-lined Greenway 20 minutes away that I'll try). Anyway, after the cal ride, I set the power smoothing to 5 seconds on the PowerPod since I have a front suspension fork that doesn't 'FULLY' lock out for the first 8 minutes, and turned off smoothing on the Garmin. I went on some singletrack mountain bike trails and the numbers seemed pretty good. There was a 16000W spike in the first few minutes while my bike was sitting in the parking lot, but it was just one second and Strava seemed to have cleaned it up. Aside from that, climbing seemed okay and the rough rocky sections didn't cause any issues. I might try with the .0211 as well. Do you mind my asking where you got the number from? Bicyclerollingresistance.com shows a lot of fat tires, but not at that low of pressure (which surprises me as this is where a lot of fat bikers run them). I wonder if 5 inches of snow would tack on quite a bit more.
All in all, for the one ride I did it seems to work pretty well, altho the fatbike is the one bike I cannot attach a friends DFPM for comparison, as nobody makes them for fat bikes...
I recall deriving and using CRR=.0173 at some point (this has been going on for a LONG time), so perhaps I found that number by doing what you did. I tested that value during the timeframe when the firmware bug hadn't been addressed for those many years, so I couldn't truly assess it's validity. If I recall correctly, the CRR=.0211 value was derived more recently from a calibration ride that I did. I often ride my tires at very low inflation levels (typically front/Bud=3.5 psi, rear/Lou=4.5 psi), which could be responsible for the higher CRR generated. And, yes, snow would have a dramatic effect on CRR. Knowing how much it increases in snowy conditions however, would be hard to estimate without, perhaps, another cal ride done in snowy conditions. I rode today where there was probably at least 6"-8" or more of crusty snow (from melting and re-freezing several times) on portions of the trail, and the rolling resistance was so much greater than in dry conditions that I simply couldn't sustain for long the number of watts needed to plough through that stuff (~300-400 unrelenting watts??). I had to do some walking...I'd need much bigger lungs than I have at this point in my life as I'm no "spring chicken"!

I think that your other questions on how the cal rides and the Issac software deal with CRR and other ride variables need to be addressed by Mr Hamann ("Velocomp"). Good luck with finding the best CRR for your riding!
Ratman
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Re: Anyone using PowerPod on a Fat Bike with any success?

Post by Ratman »

Velocomp wrote:
Ratman wrote:
hoosier1981 wrote:Hi all - I was going to take the fat bike out this weekend and give the PP a shot. I currently use PowerPod on my road / cx bikes. However - this just leaves my fat bike to set up (I've never tried it yet). I got a new Bluto fork with lockout, so calibration should be easy.
I realize CRR value doesn't make a huge difference between road tires, but as the fat tires can vary wildly, has anyone come to a close number on the Surly Bud / Lou 4.8 tires? I'll be running them at 5 lbs and would (guestimate) the crr to be close to .020 in light snow and dirt as they're the most beastly tires I've seen. I'll do some tinkering but thought I'd check in case anybody has already come up with a good number.
hoosier1981 -- I also have Bud/Lou 4.8 tires installed on my winter fatbike and have been using CRR=0.0211. I'm still evaluating the use of this value now that the bug in the Newton firmware for my unit was fixed, years after I pointed out the bug, and months after the promised delivery of the fix. I would say at this point that 0.0211 "appears" to be in the ballpark, at least for me. Good luck!
It's not that we did not want to fix it, it is that the bug was very difficult to find! Better late than never...
You know, John, I would have dropped this a LONG time ago if you didn't keep "spinning" the facts and distorting your disrespectful response to my concerns over the years on this issue. I briefly documented what's gone on in my July 17, 2017 post in this thread. Yes, I'm sure this was an obtuse issue. Yet, in my July 12, 2012 post (yes, almost 6 years ago!) which I quoted on July 17, 2017, I told you exactly how to reproduce this bug. Then on Jan 3, 2017, you posted that you were doing some testing regarding my concerns, "...just for laughs." You offer your high volume of posts as evidence of your always treating the customer with respect, yet, when you respond that you're doing something to address a customer concern "...for laughs," you could have just as easily said that my concerns were among the dumbest that you've ever heard and they must be due to something I'd done wrong, but that you'd do some testing "just for laughs" to shut me up. Unfortunately, your overconfidence in the firmware was misguided, and I was right. The "testing," as you've described, involved doing a short local (not dirt trail) ride on your road bike (not a fatbike) -- hardly a valid simulation of a fatbike ride. When the bug was finally found (as you stated -- when investigating an unrelated matter...a matter apparently of greater interest), you bragged about how quickly a new firmware version was prepared, and promised it would be made available through Travis within two weeks. Yet, it was months before the fixed firmware was available for download via Issac (I know...I kept checking, but to no avail). In addition, I wasted TONS of time following your troubleshooting instructions to a "T," ostensibly to find how I was setting up my Newton incorrectly, which, in your mind, was the real cause of the problem.

If you were truly being respectful to me and as "customer friendly" as you claim, you would have apologized long ago for not taking my concerns seriously, not responding with a legitimate attempt at finding an answer, and for leading me on a proverbial troubleshooting "goose chase." Yet, you persist in spinning this even in your most recent post to make it appear as if you've been such a good guy about this matter (which, after all, was your firmware bug) and toward me personally. That's just sad...
Velocomp
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Re: Anyone using PowerPod on a Fat Bike with any success?

Post by Velocomp »

If we thought your problem was dumb, we would not have investigated it. If we did not think it was important, we would not have remembered it for 6 years.

We most certainly believed your early reports and we did investigate them. But the actual bug had nothing to do with dirt trails per se; rather, it was an out-of-bounds condition created by the combination of high Crr and mounting angle of the device.

How we discovered this bug was accidental and I sincerely apologize for using the phrase "just for laughs"; it was not meant to be disrespectful but, rather, to indicate we had an intuition that something completely different we were investigating might have a bearing on your bug.

You rightly say we took years to fix the bug. Yes, but we fixed it just as soon as we were able to reproduce it.

That is the key: a bug cannot be fixed until it is reproduced. And sometimes, reproducing a bug is nearly impossible.

Today I tried to open a Word document on my Mac. Word launched, started to open the document, and then mysteriously quit. This happened 4 times.

In desperation I restarted my computer. After the restart Word opened just fine and I saw my document.

What is the bug I would report to Microsoft? How could Microsoft possibly reproduce it? And is it a Microsoft bug, document bug, Apple bug, app bug (I had a lot of other apps opened) or user error? Would they ever find it? Would they fix it? Who knows?

Bugs do happen; I'm truly sorry this one bit you, and am glad we were finally able to fix it.
John Hamann
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