Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Velocomp
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Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by Velocomp »

We are about to release a new version of firmware that radically simplifies first-time setup.

Tilt calibration is GONE. Button pushing is GONE. Going in to Setup is GONE. Mandatory connection to a computer is GONE.

New users will attach the mount to the bike, then attach the speed/cadence sensor to the bike, then attach the Newton to the mount.

Then, ride down the road for 5 minutes, turn around, and ride back. You don't have to go into Setup for this ride; the Newton will automatically figure out what you're doing, and guide you.

YOU'RE DONE. You'll get consistent, accurate results.

Default parameters are for a total bike/rider weight of 205 pounds, 5 feet 11 inch rider, riding on the hoods. This describes the vast majority of our customer base. So, out-of-the box accuracy is amazingly accurate.

If you want to dial-in your Newton to the max, then, when you connect your Newton to Isaac, use the Device/Device Setup... command to fine-tune your weight, etc.

Most of you likely have already dialed-in your Newtons, so this new process will have zero impact on you, EXCEPT: you'll find, in Setup, that Tilt Cal is no longer there. Why did we get rid of it? The digital sensors in the Newton have much better resolution than prior-generation sensors, and our auto-correction algorithm works extremely well, so much so that it's no longer necessary to have the user do any Tilt Cals.

We've always believed in better performing products; we also believe that simpler is better, too. And this is much, much simpler.
John Hamann
Davis6022
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by Davis6022 »

That's pretty cool, John!

Will coast downs still be available to fine tune the calibration?

Edit: Also, if my regular route is an out and back, will I even need to do the 5 minute out and back?

Mike
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by Velocomp »

Davis6022 wrote:That's pretty cool, John!

Will coast downs still be available to fine tune the calibration?

Edit: Also, if my regular route is an out and back, will I even need to do the 5 minute out and back?

Mike
Coast downs are still there, for those of you on the "lunatic fringe" :D

If your unit is already calibrated, then you won't need to do any Cal Ride (you already have). Only when you start with a new profile, with factory default settings in it, will you need to do a Cal Ride. This will be prompted automatically.
John Hamann
jayt
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by jayt »

This is wonderful John, it will go a long way to making the Newton usable by just about anyone. It has taken a while, but I have given up my old habits (cal's, tilt cal etc) and pretty much put it on my bike and ride. Rarely these days do I see anything out of whack. This is a wonderful and very useful product.
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by RGA »

Do you still have to wait for a relatively calm day to do this (wind < 10 mph)?
Keep on Pedaling,

Ray Garza
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by Velocomp »

RGA wrote:Do you still have to wait for a relatively calm day to do this (wind < 10 mph)?
For the part of your ride where the wind as at your back, as long as you are pedaling fast enough so that you have a net headwind, you'll be OK.
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by KenS »

Velocomp wrote: Coast downs are still there, for those of you on the "lunatic fringe" :D
Hey! I resemble that remark :lol:
Although the logical part of my brain tells me that at the typical speeds I ride on my loaded touring bike that aero is not that significant.
But it would be really cool if Newton could tell from the tilt readings that I was on a rough road and adjust Crr accordingly

Just a question. If you just need to do a 5 minute out and back, why not just combine with normal cal ride which would take about 8 minutes?

Edit to explain:
That is, if I'm not a big American ;) but 5'7" and 154 lbs, can I set my profile then do a cal ride without having to do a tilt cal first?
-- Ken
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by Velocomp »

KenS wrote: But it would be really cool if Newton could tell from the tilt readings that I was on a rough road and adjust Crr accordingly.
Yes it would, wouldn't it? ;)
KenS wrote:Just a question. If you just need to do a 5 minute out and back, why not just combine with normal cal ride which would take about 8 minutes?

Edit to explain:
That is, if I'm not a big American ;) but 5'7" and 154 lbs, can I set my profile then do a cal ride without having to do a tilt cal first?
The "new" Cal Ride is now the "only" cal ride you'll find in the Newton.

If you set up your profile prior to the Cal Ride, that's great--your Newton will be fine tuned immediately. Or you can do the Cal Ride, then fine-tune your profile in Isaac afterwards.

When you set your profile makes no difference with respect to Tilt Cal; the Tilt Cal step is GONE.

We are trying to keep things absolutely as simple as possible.
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by dtrousdale »

Velocomp wrote:Coast downs are still there, for those of you on the "lunatic fringe" :D
You did not mention those of us on the lunatic fringe who sometimes ride with both a Newton+ and a DFPM for purposes of finetuning CdA. May I assume that we can still get the best calibrations using a DFPM?
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by Velocomp »

dtrousdale wrote:
Velocomp wrote:Coast downs are still there, for those of you on the "lunatic fringe" :D
You did not mention those of us on the lunatic fringe who sometimes ride with both a Newton+ and a DFPM for purposes of finetuning CdA. May I assume that we can still get the best calibrations using a DFPM?
Yes, you can still calibrate with a DFPM, but I'm not willing to say you'll get "best calibrations" with a DFPM.

We have seen more and more instances of DFPM numbers being wrong, because the DFPM itself isn't working properly.

A month ago I received an email from someone who is reviewing our product. He is using the Newton with his crank DFPM, and there was a mismatch in numbers. We looked at his results and told him the DFPM was wrong.

Today I received another email from him. He had his DFPM checked and said we were right; his DFPM was "off"... :D

Folks, remember that all DFPMs are electro-mechanical devices. Mechanical components on a bicycle experience high stresses, particularly in cranks, pedals, bottom brackets, and hubs...places where all of the cyclist's power is concentrated, and places where DFPMs put their sensors. It's inevitable that DPFMs will go out of whack.

The Newton has no mechanical devices in it, and the stresses on its sensors are microscopic compared to those put on DFPMs.

Another example: for years, we were bashed because, in some race situations, our numbers were consistently lower than crank DFPMs. As it turns out, the problem was them, not us: crank DFPMs report false watts for up to three seconds, every time the cyclist stops pedaling! In a crit, that kind of error adds up--DFPM average watts can be 6% high, or more.

With each passing day the Newton gets better and better, and competitive technologies become more and more suspect.
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by dtrousdale »

Velocomp wrote:
dtrousdale wrote:
Velocomp wrote:Coast downs are still there, for those of you on the "lunatic fringe" :D
You did not mention those of us on the lunatic fringe who sometimes ride with both a Newton+ and a DFPM for purposes of finetuning CdA. May I assume that we can still get the best calibrations using a DFPM?
Yes, you can still calibrate with a DFPM, but I'm not willing to say you'll get "best calibrations" with a DFPM.
What would you be willing to say is how to get the "best calibrations"? Including the coast downs along with the 5-minute out-and-back?
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by Velocomp »

If you have a properly calibrated DFPM (recently serviced, and zero offset done properly) then the easiest way is to fine-tune your Newton is with your DFPM. I would do a 5 mile long, out-and-back ride. Then, I would use the Check Calibration feature.

By the way, I would NOT use a half-crank (one leg) DFPM for any calibration purposes. These devices have serious accuracy and consistency issues and can't be trusted for quality measurements.

If you don't have a DFPM, or you're not sure about its calibration quality, then, if you're careful and consistent, coast-downs will be the next choice for maximum accuracy. Follow the instructions in the Newton manual carefully, and then use Isaac software, and you should get great results.

Of course, the "Fast Start" calibrations in the Newton are brain-dead easy and, frankly, they get within a few percent (and often closer) of "perfect" accuracy.

In a very real sense, accuracy is about bragging rights. "I averaged 264W today". "OH YEAH??? Well, I averaged 271W!" If both cyclist's PMs are very accurately calibrated, then the 271W guy is the watts winner. But apart from that absolute comparison, it really doesn't mean much.

In fact, CONSISTENT power measurement is more important than an absolutely accurate measurement. For example, if a PM reads 3% low, CONSISTENTLY, then even though it's "wrong", its measurements are meaningful. Why? Because, when that cyclist's performance improves by a few %, as measured by his PM, that is truly something to celebrate.

Over the years I have ridden in many Porsches, and have noticed something odd about them: their speedometers consistently read about 5% high. How do I know? I drive down the road, using the mileage markers on the side of the road, and measure with a watch how long it takes to travel 1.0 miles. Now, the Porsche's "fast" speedometer makes the driver feel good, even though it is not accurate. But even though it's not accurate, it's consistent--and trustworthy because of it.

Is an "inaccurate" but consistent speedometer a problem? Not at all, unless you get pulled over by a cop, whose radar gun says you were speeding. The cop gets to brag--and you get to pay the ticket. :D
John Hamann
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by ldmitruk »

This sounds just like what I deal with on a regular basis on accuracy vs precision at my day gig. This article at Wikipedia Accuracy and Precision is a great explanation of how the two differ. A lot of people get the two terms confused and how they work. I think the precision, or repeatability of the readings is more important as mentioned below. When you start to think about it, 3% of 250 watts is around 7.5 (my bad got the math wrong originally) watts. And to think people over at a certain Google Groups dis iBike products over that amount :lol:
Velocomp wrote:If you have a properly calibrated DFPM (recently serviced, and zero offset done properly) then the easiest way is to fine-tune your Newton is with your DFPM. I would do a 5 mile long, out-and-back ride. Then, I would use the Check Calibration feature.

By the way, I would NOT use a half-crank (one leg) DFPM for any calibration purposes. These devices have serious accuracy and consistency issues and can't be trusted for quality measurements.

If you don't have a DFPM, or you're not sure about its calibration quality, then, if you're careful and consistent, coast-downs will be the next choice for maximum accuracy. Follow the instructions in the Newton manual carefully, and then use Isaac software, and you should get great results.

Of course, the "Fast Start" calibrations in the Newton are brain-dead easy and, frankly, they get within a few percent (and often closer) of "perfect" accuracy.

In a very real sense, accuracy is about bragging rights. "I averaged 264W today". "OH YEAH??? Well, I averaged 271W!" If both cyclist's PMs are very accurately calibrated, then the 271W guy is the watts winner. But apart from that absolute comparison, it really doesn't mean much.

In fact, CONSISTENT power measurement is more important than an absolutely accurate measurement. For example, if a PM reads 3% low, CONSISTENTLY, then even though it's "wrong", its measurements are meaningful. Why? Because, when that cyclist's performance improves by a few %, as measured by his PM, that is truly something to celebrate.

Over the years I have ridden in many Porsches, and have noticed something odd about them: their speedometers consistently read about 5% high. How do I know? I drive down the road, using the mileage markers on the side of the road, and measure with a watch how long it takes to travel 1.0 miles. Now, the Porsche's "fast" speedometer makes the driver feel good, even though it is not accurate. But even though it's not accurate, it's consistent--and trustworthy because of it.

Is an "inaccurate" but consistent speedometer a problem? Not at all, unless you get pulled over by a cop, whose radar gun says you were speeding. The cop gets to brag--and you get to pay the ticket. :D
Last edited by ldmitruk on Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jayt
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by jayt »

Help me out here, I always thought that 3% of 250 W is 7.5 W (not 0.012), am I missing something here?
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by TonyR »

Velocomp wrote:We are about to release a new version of firmware that radically simplifies first-time setup.

Tilt calibration is GONE. Button pushing is GONE. Going in to Setup is GONE. Mandatory connection to a computer is GONE.

New users will attach the mount to the bike, then attach the speed/cadence sensor to the bike, then attach the Newton to the mount.

Then, ride down the road for 5 minutes, turn around, and ride back. You don't have to go into Setup for this ride; the Newton will automatically figure out what you're doing, and guide you.

YOU'RE DONE. You'll get consistent, accurate results.

Default parameters are for a total bike/rider weight of 205 pounds, 5 feet 11 inch rider, riding on the hoods. This describes the vast majority of our customer base. So, out-of-the box accuracy is amazingly accurate.

If you want to dial-in your Newton to the max, then, when you connect your Newton to Isaac, use the Device/Device Setup... command to fine-tune your weight, etc.

Most of you likely have already dialed-in your Newtons, so this new process will have zero impact on you, EXCEPT: you'll find, in Setup, that Tilt Cal is no longer there. Why did we get rid of it? The digital sensors in the Newton have much better resolution than prior-generation sensors, and our auto-correction algorithm works extremely well, so much so that it's no longer necessary to have the user do any Tilt Cals.

We've always believed in better performing products; we also believe that simpler is better, too. And this is much, much simpler.
Wonderful!!!
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by Davis6022 »

"By the way, I would NOT use a half-crank (one leg) DFPM for any calibration purposes. These devices have serious accuracy and consistency issues and can't be trusted for quality measurements."

I would like to hear more about this. Is it based on the fact that it's just doubling the power from one leg? Or is it based on the accuracy of the strain measurements in the crank itself? Or is it something else?

If I've been tested on a computrainer and it shows pretty consistent 50/50 power between the legs, would that eliminate the first concern?

Mike
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by Velocomp »

Davis6022 wrote:"By the way, I would NOT use a half-crank (one leg) DFPM for any calibration purposes. These devices have serious accuracy and consistency issues and can't be trusted for quality measurements."

I would like to hear more about this. Is it based on the fact that it's just doubling the power from one leg? Or is it based on the accuracy of the strain measurements in the crank itself? Or is it something else?

If I've been tested on a computrainer and it shows pretty consistent 50/50 power between the legs, would that eliminate the first concern?

Mike
Since half-crank DFPMs measure only one leg, they have to guess what the other leg is doing. And it really is a guess.

Even if you were tested on a machine, and shown to have a 50/50 split, your result would be valid for that test only. In fact, lots of studies have shown that Left/Right power split varies according to intensity of effort, cycling conditions (e.g. flats, hills, high/low cadence), and fatigue. So, in the real world your own cycling isn't always going to be 50/50.

The errors can be substantial, too: we've tested a half-crank product, and it's very easy to get watts errors of 25% or more, both high and low.

When using a DFPM for calibrating the Newton, the assumption made is that the DFPM is both consistent and accurate. Neither assumption is valid for a half-crank meter, which is why they can't be used for calibration purposes.
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by NorBike »

I have not tried the new firmware.

Simplified. Before, we did a 180 degree turn-around tilt cal to get the Newton in level, and a cal ride to get the nose up/down right with the riding tilt factor. On top of this there was this auto-correction algorithm that seems to me "override" both these fators. Now, the tilt cal is gone. Does the 5+5min cal ride take care of the riding tilt, or is the riding tilt factor also gone?

I use my Newton often on my MTB. I have seen strange results when not riding og flat tarmac (not offroad, but on gravel roads and trails)
Can the auto-correction algorithm cause this when not riding on tarmac and wiht a road bike? (I have a ridig front fork)

What about the existing settings inside my Ibike. It's already calibrated with a tilt cal and a -0.7% riding tilt?
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by Zoltan »

Velocomp wrote: Over the years I have ridden in many Porsches, and have noticed something odd about them: their speedometers consistently read about 5% high. How do I know? I drive down the road, using the mileage markers on the side of the road, and measure with a watch how long it takes to travel 1.0 miles. Now, the Porsche's "fast" speedometer makes the driver feel good, even though it is not accurate. But even though it's not accurate, it's consistent--and trustworthy because of it.

Is an "inaccurate" but consistent speedometer a problem? Not at all, unless you get pulled over by a cop, whose radar gun says you were speeding. The cop gets to brag--and you get to pay the ticket. :D
The same with BMW 530D. The only problem is that while instantaneous speed is overestimated intentionally (presumably to try to save against speeding tickets), its distance measurement is not distorted, or prettily slightly.

On the other hand average speed is calculated in a strange way. It is not equal to the average of the instantaneous speed data (I checked it using tempomat) but a bit higher that the real average speed. So if you check your board computer you can realize that the holy trinity of (avg) speed, distance and time is broken. My first idea was thhat BMW used some GPS data, but thenI remembered that this car had no navigation system at all. So I could not solve the mistery of the broken relationship of v=s/t.

But I must admit that it is very rare among BMW owners that they are skillful to spot it at all. Maybe some of their chauffers. :lol:
Davis6022
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by Davis6022 »

Yesterday, I set up a new profile with the new firmware and let Newton do it's thing with the calibration ride. The file for the calibration ride is very strange. It started out with a slope of 40 degrees (and 2000 Watts!) on the outbound leg and flat on the inbound leg for a flat out-and-back ride. I assume this is part of the process for determining the tilt now. Just a note - I suggest you mark these files as Cal files like the older firmware did. Then I did some coast downs, but before I could do that it asked me to do the tilt calibration. So this is still required for the coast downs?
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by racerfern »

I experienced the same thing yesterday. The solution is to not download the "cal ride", whether it's called a calride or not.

Newton takes everything into consideration regardless of the wattage numbers you see. When you plug Newton in don't download the cal ride, simply go to Device > Device Setup and follow the prompts saying I already did a cal ride. Isaac will "update" the profile Newton created with your info and you're done.

I agree that upon download the numbers are weird, however I did two cal rides. For one I got 1.201 for wind scaling and the other I got 1.204. I got -.5 tilt for both so I have to say the numbers were spot on! Now I need to do a fitness test and I'm good to go.
Fernando
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by rons »

I have to admit this is truly a revolutionary move. I don't mind playing around to get things right. To me that was the cost of a less expensive approach, and I like the geek aspect of it. This however changes everything. The easier it is to get it up and running the better for those who are not gear heads. To me this is a huge thing to say to people try this out, it is unbelievably easy to use. I personally like the ability to see what is happening under the hood, but I have to admit there are many who could care less, they just want the numbers, now we can have it both ways. Way to go iBike!

Something that strikes me odd when I am riding with a stiff tail wind, I seem to get over optimistic power readings, say at 40-45 kph road speed, probably a 20-25 kph tailwind, with a cadence up in the 80-90 range, the power is up over 300 watts. Now for me that is not a sustainable effort, but I know from my RPE this is too easy for 300+ watts. That makes me think one of my aero factors or a wind offset is a bit out there. The rest of the time the effort seems to correlate well with my trainer and its power reading vs RPE. Since I am not talking about force on pedals but the overall effort one is putting out which I know from my time now with the iBike and a winter on the trainer looking at power readings, should correlate pretty well.

So I am keen to see how the new quick start calibration will work and what sort of numbers it gives me. Keep up the good work on what I have come to believe is the best power meter bar none.
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by Sykkel »

Velocomp wrote:We are about to release a new version of firmware that radically simplifies first-time setup.

Tilt calibration is GONE. Button pushing is GONE. Going in to Setup is GONE. Mandatory connection to a computer is GONE.

New users will attach the mount to the bike, then attach the speed/cadence sensor to the bike, then attach the Newton to the mount.

Then, ride down the road for 5 minutes, turn around, and ride back. You don't have to go into Setup for this ride; the Newton will automatically figure out what you're doing, and guide you.

YOU'RE DONE. You'll get consistent, accurate results.

Default parameters are for a total bike/rider weight of 205 pounds, 5 feet 11 inch rider, riding on the hoods. This describes the vast majority of our customer base. So, out-of-the box accuracy is amazingly accurate.

If you want to dial-in your Newton to the max, then, when you connect your Newton to Isaac, use the Device/Device Setup... command to fine-tune your weight, etc.

Most of you likely have already dialed-in your Newtons, so this new process will have zero impact on you, EXCEPT: you'll find, in Setup, that Tilt Cal is no longer there. Why did we get rid of it? The digital sensors in the Newton have much better resolution than prior-generation sensors, and our auto-correction algorithm works extremely well, so much so that it's no longer necessary to have the user do any Tilt Cals.

We've always believed in better performing products; we also believe that simpler is better, too. And this is much, much simpler.
Tilt cal is NOT dead. It's still alive :-)

I got a bit suprised when I opened the coastdown menu, and got the "Tilt start" command before i could do a coastdown?

Since tilt cal is "gone" because of the 5min auto-correction algorithm, why does Ibike Newton need the riding tilt factor/number?
If the riding tilt factor is wrong, shouldn't the auto-correction algorithm also correct this ?

I don't criticize the new firmware, I just want to understand the changes.
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by Velocomp »

Coast downs are among the most sensitive calibrations the Newton makes. We left Tilt Cal in the coast down section because, if someone tries a coast down but, for whatever reason, has not done a Cal Ride previously (as the instructions require), then your Newton will get really screwed up.

Frankly, we could probably remove the Tilt Cal from the coast down sequence, too, but we'll leave it in now, just for the sake of old times. :D
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Sykkel
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by Sykkel »

Velocomp wrote:Coast downs are among the most sensitive calibrations the Newton makes. We left Tilt Cal in the coast down section because, if someone tries a coast down but, for whatever reason, has not done a Cal Ride previously (as the instructions require), then your Newton will get really screwed up.

Frankly, we could probably remove the Tilt Cal from the coast down sequence, too, but we'll leave it in now, just for the sake of old times. :D
But what about the "Riding Tilt"? Could this also be removed now?
As I understand the riding tilt comes from the cal ride (or manually from "check calibration") as a offset because of the tilt cal does not take in care of tire compression/ bike front being pressed down/steering-movements when the rider is on his bike. But if this number is wrong, or removed, wouldn't the auto-correction algorithm override/correct this?
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by hiroad »

Dear John,

1)I totally agree to your concept to make "First-start" really quick. It would be very handy to new comers.

However, it premises the "default" rider weight, rider size, riding posture(hood or drop, etc), gear weight, or else. I think it can be persuasive, especially for those skeptic ones, if you show some data of validity of those "default" setting comparing to the "fine-tuned" condition.

2)I'd rather have your advise about following situation.

Sometimes I dismount my handlebar/handlebar-stem to pack the bike to travel. Or,make minor changes of handlebar settings. Until now I have done Tilt Cal for the assurance at these occasions. Also,I do Tilt once in every month only just for sure.

With OS 400 or further, should I ALWAYS do "cal rides" in those minimal situations for make it sure? If positive, I miss the Tilt Cal functionality.
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by jayt »

Good point on changing the handlebar position. I'm getting ready to do a ride on teh east coast (I live in the Northwest) and I will ship my bike out. In the past all I needed to do was reassembly the bike and do a tilt-cal and I was done. Now if I have to do the little ride, that is a bit more of a bother, or take it that the first few miles of my ride will be messed up until the Newton re-calibrates itself. Having the tilt-cal seems like a more efficient means to handle these situations. But maybe John and crew will have batter advice.
dandegroot
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by dandegroot »

@jayt the tilt cal is still there in the coast down function. Perhaps you could start a coast down sequence, do the tilt cal, then abort the coast down immediately. I wonder if the Newton will record the new tilt cal value using this method?
rons
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by rons »

yes I was wondering the same thing, if you abort the coast down does the tilt cal stick?
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Re: Tilt Cal R.I.P.

Post by racerfern »

One way to find out... :-)
Fernando
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