Tilt questions

[GWPOS]

I am wandering how changing the riding tilt in the profile will alter my ride data? I know the unit has an auto tilt correction, so does changing the tilt even matter?
I ask this because I do a climb of about 20 min. and 3.45 miles and after downloading it to the software it gave me a slope of 5.99%. I know this climb is closer to 6.9%. I have LOTS of ride files from my Gen 3 unit plus various websites confirm this.

[Velocomp]

Riding tilt is measured dynamically during a ride. The profile's riding tilt is merely the starting point reference used at the beginning of a ride.

[GWPOS]

Ok then why is it under calculating the the slope, if its not in my tilt?

[Russ]

GWPOS,

I can't answer your last question but the one prior, perhaps partially....

If riding tilt is incorrect, during the first five minutes, while dynamic or ride time corrections are cranking up, you will find a notable difference in the elevation profiles shown in uncorrected and corrected displays. Not sure I am describing that clearly. I am talking about the two elevation plots you see when you do the correction for a route that starts and stops at the same place. If you zoom into the first 5-10 minutes you will see the correction being applied and after that the two will be much more in agreement.

After the first five minutes I am not sure of any details about it. I think that resets start the process over.

I have also found with my new Newton that when setting tilt and it says 'good tilt' it ain't necessarily as good as Gen III. It seems to call a few tenths off as good. So I now double check by reversing the bike on the setup spots and observing the tilt display to see if it is within .1 or equal (plus vs minus) and carefully redo if not. I think if it says good it is supposed to be good enough for government work or something

Russ

[GWPOS]

Close enough for government work...haha. I know I have been through all of this tilt with everyone before. I just wanted to make sure it is not something with my profile...or even my unit. The Newton in giving me consistent numbers, just consistently lower numbers on those steeper climbs. I understand that when doing hill repeats that when I reach the bottom I have to ride uphill for 5 min before doing the next interval or my numbers are really off. That has been going on since the Gen 3. Makes it hard to do intervals right though, especially when I am only supposed to have about a 5 min rest in between interval. Now I have to have about a 10-11 min rest while i coast back down and then wait for the unit to auto correct the tilt.

Anyways that is not what I am posting about. I have looked at a lot of certain hill climbs from my old unit and now looking at this one and although the slope is never the same from one hill climb/repeat to the next I know that it is steeper than what my Newton is giving me by .5-1.0%. That changes the numbers on a climb a lot. I will do some more hill repeats tomorrow on the same hill and see how they look????

[rruff]

Look at starting and ending elevations for the climb, both in the Gen3 and the Newton. Tell us what you find. It's possible that your baro sensor is faulty, and is leading to an incorrect tilt.

[GWPOS]

Thanks. Trying to find elevation for the start of the climb would be easy, but for the end of the climb will take some work. These were not climbs to the top but timed 20 min climbs, so the end point could vary some.

I looked at my rides starting at the beginning of the year and the starting elevations vary. However, when looking at my intervals for the same distance and in the same wind conditions my new unit is calculating my intervals around 15-30 watss lower consistantly. Same climb. Will do some more intervals on Tues and see what i get.

[Velocomp]

We will be taking a look at all of this once Travis returns from his vacation.

[GWPOS]

Thanks guys. I did a little research yesterday and today by looking at my old ride file and the couple of onew done with the Newton. Used elevation profile maps from Garmin, Veloroutes, and Map my ride. I used my intervals that I did which were all started at the same location, figured out elevation using the app I just mentioned and then compared to the IBike and Newton elevations. Unfortunately I do not have enough to get good averages on my Newton's elevation. After this week I should have 2-3 more interval sessions to look at.

[rruff]

These were not climbs to the top but timed 20 min climbs, so the end point could vary some.

In that case look at climbs where you *can* identify the bottom and top.

[GWPOS]

Thats what I am doing. I know where the first interval of each day starts because I always start at the same place to make analyzing that much easier. So I am taking the first 3 miles of each interval and looking at the beginning and ending elevation from there along with slope% also. Will have some more info by Friday I hope, maybe even sooner.

[rruff]

That probably isn't bad, but could be problem if your odometer isn't perfectly dialed. Do you have any significant hills that you climb to the top of?

[GWPOS]

Hi rruff, I checked my odometer and it is fine. I actually measured my wheel also to double check. I did my intervals tonight and for the first one I went 3.38 miles. I then verified my starting/stopping point on the web. using the various online tools, Google maps, Map My Ride, veloroutes, etc. My elevation gain is over 100' off or to low. No wonder my watts are coming out way to low. THE ACTUAL STARTING ELEVATION IS 3078' AND ENDING ELEVATION IS 4240'. My Newton is saying starting is 3077' and ending at 4133' Thats a 107' difference. If it had happened only once that would be ok, but it is doing this on every ride. So now what do I do??

Here is my ride file for tonight. Which does not do any good unless you can see the hill I rode on, distances etc for you to compare like I have done. But now I have no GPS data. I can send the screen shot.bmp from paint that I saved and e-mail it?? Maybe I just need to call IBike.

Can I get this unit exchanged for a new one?

iBike_07_10_2012_1741_21_Miles.ibr

(278.63 KiB) Downloaded 241 times

[GWPOS]

Just talked to Tom at IBike and they are looking into my problem. So I will hold tight and look forward to their response. They have excellent support and am confident that it will be resolved. Thanks

[rruff]

If your numbers are correct, it must be caused by a consistent baro sensor error.

[GWPOS]

Tom asked me to do a simple 2 mile out and back just to check out all of the sensors and then e-mail it to him. He also mentioned that he/they think it is a firmware issue. Maybe someone can do a 20 minute steep climb (avg. 6.5-7%) that takes them about 3 miles or more, then compare elevation gains from there unit to google, garmin, velotoutes, etc and see what they get. That would verify a firmware issue or not. To make all of the data consistant, try doing it at around 265-270 watts..hahahah. Have fun and let me know if any of you tried this and what you found. In the mean time I will be as patient as I can and wait for IBike to fix my issue. They always come through.

[heith]

I have a similar problem with tilt and or slope.. My problem is on the descent. It's reading the going up hill part fine with very accurate numbers according to my DFPM(which I calibrated it with)and perceived effort. But on the descent it's reading inaccurate slope and giving me huge wattage numbers. It's really messing with my TSS scores at the end of rides and also my mean maximal charts. I wish I could pull a NP of 400watts for 12 minutes but my DFPM and 2 years of gen3 data says different.
What have we found out, is there something we can do in the mean time to get the gradient numbers more accurate?

[GWPOS]

I have been talking to IBike....actaually via e-mail which is a pain in the butt. Takes forever to get your point across. Anyways he had me send him a file and said everything looks good except for a couple of minor profile changes. I was not contacting him because of problems with my profile, I am having problems with the slope/elevation gains during a ride causing low power numbers. They look at a file and say nothing is wrong, yet they have not seen the actual elevation profile to know that the unit calculated it wrong. I to have many files from my Gen3 that show very consistant slopes of around 6.5% for a particular climb. My Newton is showing 5.87, 5.99. That .5% = around 24 watts. I was told that the sensors are digital now and that if something was wrong they would not work at all so therefore nothing is wrong???????????

I to track TSS scores and mine are all over the place since using the Newton. On a group ride I had an IF of >1.0 for 2hr 15min. If I set my FTP based on my power test which I do on the climbe I have been having slope problems with then when I ride on flats and so forth my TSS appears to overcalculating, but I am not really sure on this yet. If I am doing climbing then everything comes out differently.

I am in the process of putting on a friends Powertap and doing these climbs/intervals to see what numbers it gives me. I should not have to do this but that is what it has come down to. Heck I may even borrow my neighbors Gen3 and pu it on also. Why I am at it maybe I should borrow a SRM or Quarq to...hahahaha.

Newton_07_10_2012_1741_21_Miles.ibr

(278.68 KiB) Downloaded 223 times

Gen3_05_24_2012_1729_31_Miles_281_283.ibr

(384.19 KiB) Downloaded 218 times

Gen3_03_03_2012_0901_25_Miles_FTP_348_297.ibr

(506.18 KiB) Downloaded 219 times

[GWPOS]

Here is one more Newton ride.

Newton_07_05_2012_1731_22_Miles_267w_267w.ibr

(254 KiB) Downloaded 294 times

[Velocomp]

I have been talking to IBike....actaually via e-mail which is a pain in the butt. Takes forever to get your point across. Anyways he had me send him a file and said everything looks good except for a couple of minor profile changes. I was not contacting him because of problems with my profile, I am having problems with the slope/elevation gains during a ride causing low power numbers. They look at a file and say nothing is wrong, yet they have not seen the actual elevation profile to know that the unit calculated it wrong. I to have many files from my Gen3 that show very consistant slopes of around 6.5% for a particular climb. My Newton is showing 5.87, 5.99. That .5% = around 24 watts. I was told that the sensors are digital now and that if something was wrong they would not work at all so therefore nothing is wrong???????????

I to track TSS scores and mine are all over the place since using the Newton. On a group ride I had an IF of >1.0 for 2hr 15min. If I set my FTP based on my power test which I do on the climbe I have been having slope problems with then when I ride on flats and so forth my TSS appears to overcalculating, but I am not really sure on this yet. If I am doing climbing then everything comes out differently.

I am in the process of putting on a friends Powertap and doing these climbs/intervals to see what numbers it gives me. I should not have to do this but that is what it has come down to. Heck I may even borrow my neighbors Gen3 and pu it on also. Why I am at it maybe I should borrow a SRM or Quarq to...hahahaha.

Newton_07_10_2012_1741_21_Miles.ibr

Gen3_05_24_2012_1729_31_Miles_281_283.ibr

Gen3_03_03_2012_0901_25_Miles_FTP_348_297.ibr

This thread is getting a bit old.

We said on July 9 that we would look into this when Travis returns from vacation, which is July 15. Please just wait and let us do our job. If we need more ride files we will ask for them.

[GWPOS]

Sorry, I guess I got impatient, especially when Tom said nothing was wrong. But you are right, and I will wait until Travis returns. I did not notice on your post that you said it would be next week. My mistake. Until then I will keep putting along with my new Newton.

Again sorry for the inconvenience and persistancy of my posts.

[heith]

If you feel like climbing up to Crystal Lake and GMR Sunday, you can barrow my G3(38mm carbon rim) for the day. Have a nice group meeting at Encanto Park at 8am. https://maps.google.com/maps?q=encanto+ ... 16&iwloc=A

[GWPOS]

Thanks for the offer, but I already borrowed a powertap and have started doing some rides to get comparisons. After my first ride it appears that I would need to raise my cda from .350 to .400 (that seems reaaly high) to get the proper watts on descents, but like I said I am still doing a variety of rides to do my comparison with. In the meantime I am waiting for Travis to get back from vacation to go over a few things with him. There is a chance that my gen3, which was brand new had a problem and was calculating high. Not sure about the elevation and slope stuff but I am sire that Travis will shed some light on it for me.

[GWPOS]

First of all I would like to apologize for keeping this thread going for so long. After 2 rides using a powertap I have found that on these easy rides the powertap and Newton are right on with each other for the short climbs I did. So my Newton is most likely doing that part right, I will know tomorrow after doing my hill repeats. If this holds true then it was my new Gen3 that was off although I was assured it was ok at one point, but that was then and this is now.

My only problem now is power on descents. In order to make the watts match up to the powertap I have to raise my cda from .350 to .410(which seems way to high). Any ways I will do my hill repeats and then maybe someone at IBike can help me decipher what is wrong with my calibration/profile and get me alligned with the readings from the powertap?? Again sorry for the previous posts, did not want to get people at IBike mad for the consistant pestering on this matter.